12 Yutongs

Started by Barry Drive, December 06, 2022, 11:35:50 AM

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Barry Drive

The Minister has stated in various places that the Yutong E12s should be arriving this year (i.e. in December). So maybe expect to see some arriving any day now.

Barry Drive

As has been revealed today, the first leased Yutong has arrived and put into an AOA wrap. It's still unregistered as far as I can determine, so the fleet number (which is not showing on the bus in the photos) is still unknown.


triumph

Cleaner, quieter, and more comfortable? Really?
Whilst passenger behaviour and routine cleansing will have a substantial impact on these achievments (note 'cleaner' is apparently distinguished from 'emission reduction' in the TC material), it is the claimed 'more comfortable' that I have concerns with.
As I have previously remarked, my experience of all the previous trial fully electric buses was that the ride was considerably jigglier/rougher and more uncomfortable than the regular diesel buses. Unless the quality of seating and/or suspension has been very much improved on the latest electric buses, then 'more comfortable' it won't be.

From a public statement about the time of the previous trials, it appears that Transport Canberra was considering 'comfort' from a driver perception. This is quite misleading as the drivers' seats have special seat suspensions and anti-fatigue designs.

Road authorities use accelerometers to assess road surface ride quality, and there is no reason why it can't be applied to vehicle ride quality.

I wonder if Transport Canberra, to validate the 'improved ride' claim, has done a proper evaluation using readily available sensitive accelerometers mounted say on the seat squab (with a suitable dummy mass on the squab) and on the bus body at shoulder height.
Sadly, I suspect not.


Barry Drive

The first milestone has been achieved: "BUS 800" was registered today.

The second bus was also delivered this week.

Quote from: triumph on January 01, 2023, 08:56:46 PMUnless the quality of seating and/or suspension has been very much improved on the latest electric buses, then 'more comfortable' it won't be.
Since you asked, they are using the same brand of passenger seats as the Bustechs.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Welp, RIP people with back problems then...

triumph

Item in TC News section of their website, dated yesterday:

'Canberra's bus passengers are transporting into the future!

The ACT's first permanent electric bus has hit the road, with passengers to experience a quieter and more comfortable bus journey.

This is an important milestone for our city, as we move towards a completely zero emissions public transport network that is powered by 100% renewable electricity by 2040 or earlier.

If the electric bus isn't on your route, you will get your chance to catch one soon - 11 more battery electric buses will begin operations across Canberra in the coming weeks and procurement to purchase 90 more is underway!

26 fully compliant low-emissions diesel buses are expected to join the crew by mid-2023. In the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.

For more info on the ACT Government's Zero-Emission Transition Plan, visit Zero-Emission Transition Plan For Transport Canberra.'

"..has hit the road..." So, can this be taken literally as in service or is it just puffery around an official showing? Any sightings in service yet?
 It seems quite clear that TC anticipates a half year delay for the 'low emission' diesel buses, and that some use of the PR2s will continue though dwindling until then too.
Given the route service minimisation, there is a strong possibility that the final usage will be for School (or perhaps even event) services, with disappearance from route service indeterminate. Hopefully TC might organise a formal last day of use in a route service, but given their continued use must be an embarassment, I am not holding my breath.

Snorzac

800 operated one route 76 yesterday, it is expected that it will likely be in service for morning peak tomorrow before resuming driver training duties, it could be expected that the second one to be ready (I think BUS808 going off the wiki) would be in service on Monday

Buzz Killington

808 entered service today

triumph

Today's Sunday Canberra Times at page 12 has an article by Peter Brewer headed 'Brakes on for electric bus supply'.

The 5th para reads 'It started with a trickle feed of eight Chinese-made Yutong electric buses and four Australian-made Custom Denning Element models, but the slow rollout of zero-emission buses into the ACTION fleet is determined as much by supplier capacity as the installation speed of the depot rechargers to keep them mobile'.

This is a bit peculiar concerning the numbers of buses of the two types. 8 Yutongs are quoted, not 12, and the Yutong fleet numbers already range between 800 and 811. My feeling is that the reporter has used non-current data. And the Custom Denning Elements? * Yutongs have become 12 which suggests that the Custom vehicles are a long way off or not coming at all.

There is much more on electric buses in general in this whole page article.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Barry Drive on January 18, 2023, 06:05:38 PMThe first milestone has been achieved: "BUS 800" was registered today.
Another milestone: the last two Yutongs (804 & 805) were registered today. If they continue at their current rate, these two should be in service by next week.

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on January 26, 2023, 07:11:48 PMIf the electric bus isn't on your route, you will get your chance to catch one soon - 11 more battery electric buses will begin operations across Canberra in the coming weeks and procurement to purchase 90 more is underway!

(Emphasis added)

805 was the final Yutong to enter service last week.

I haven't counted, but that was quite a few "weeks" between the first and the last.

Bus967

#11
It's official, I've taken the very first trip on a Yutong today, That was the 54 Majura Loop (809 , I'm still writing it as we speak and I found out that the Evans directly above the passages actually have a little Slider in some cases and now every seat has USB chargers, I chatted with the driver and he said he isn't exactly a fan of it because there's too many noises which I can understand The ride quality is a bit bumpy, and the brakes seem quite strong and instead of gently coasting to a stop it's kinda seems to be a bit stop start stop start, you can feel all the imperfections in the road, I also have some internal photos of the Yutong trial bus put those were taken on my phone before I joined ACTBUS forums

triumph

And I have already seen a passenger actually using a USB port.
Bumpiness has become a bit of a puzzle for me. At first I felt the ride in the new EV buses was bumpy, but subsequently my perception of bumpiness seems to vary a lot. Me? or variability between buses? AS Bus967 has also perceived bumpiness, and a driver remarked to me about unwelcome feed back through the steering wheel,  I am wondering about variability - the most likely culprits are varying tyre pressures and/or stiffness in new suspensions.
Bumpiness is most obvious with minor road surface imperfections.
Apparently hub motors are not used so unsprung weight should not be an issue.
It is to be hoped that TC can have the next electric bus tranche provided with more compliant suspension suitable for local conditions and passenger comfort.
As previously noted (I think), test use of sensitive 3 axis accelerometers should confirm the extent of this issue. 

Sylvan Loves Buses

I honestly think TCCS/CMET don't care for comfort anymore. Safety and accessibility sure, but certainly not comfort.
Some of the latest as examples:
  • The MKIII precision-techs have so little room on the front seat you can't have a shoe size larger than 8 without having to sit diagonally
    The cushion is so thin it may as well not be there...
  • The LRV seats are as hard as concrete...
  • The Woden Temp Interchange provides no protection from Canberra's erratic weather what so ever:
    -white concrete making the sun reflection blinding when you step off a bus in summer.
    -Seats placed in line with the openings of the shipping containers so you're in direct morning/evening sun glare.
    -No wind protection unless you stand at the ticket vendor or Pt1-2.
That windy/rainy day a couple weeks ago was absolute hell. Sitting in those containers (esp Pt3-4) while trying to stay at normal-ish body temperature while it's windy AF for 30 minutes is impossible. Excluding Dickson and Belconnen at least (most) of the other past/present interchanges had/have something you can hide in/behind.

Back to the main point though... The front seat steps on these Yutongs is so small it's actually dangerous if you step up slightly wrong - which I have done, got a fabulous bruise on my knee and shin thanks to that design flaw. It's so bad the gap also means one foot is sitting 6+ inches lower than the other for the whole journey (rip large-built people). That slit for the aircon is cool and all, but with all that distracting noise from the beeping, ding dong-ing, rattling and crap, I couldn't care less about the bumpiness.

Noisy? "Ow my ears"
Practical? Probably. I haven't heard anything yet on them breaking down from being out too long.
Good for the environment? What power source is the charger plugged into, because if it's not solar then what's the point lol.
Cool bus look? Remove the AOA and I'll give it a thumbs up.
Comfy? Forget it... A motorised wheelchair would probably be more comfortable.

Bus 400

I know it's a touch off topic, but you have to remember TC & CMET are only purchasing what's on the market. This things mentioned are only what every other public transport operator/provider wants.


triumph

Quote from: Bus 400 on May 17, 2023, 05:48:00 AMI know it's a touch off topic, but you have to remember TC & CMET are only purchasing what's on the market. This things mentioned are only what every other public transport operator/provider wants.
Not a reason to roll over and give up. Pressure needs to be applied for product improvement.
Incidentally at a recent meeting I attended a TC representative referred to design and acquisition in relation to the new LRVs needed for the extension of LR to Commonwealth Park.

triumph

Quote from: Bus967 on May 16, 2023, 05:34:53 PM.... The ride quality is a bit bumpy, and the brakes seem quite strong and instead of gently coasting to a stop it's kinda seems to be a bit stop start stop start ....

I am inclined to attribute jerky braking to the driver. Quite a few seem to need to slow up to stops in a series of brake applications. If anything the electric buses should be smoother in acceleration and deceleration, and that has mostly been my experience. (Perhaps Snorzac could elaborate on the pros and cons of achieving smooth braking.)

triumph

Another subtle feature I noticed today is the wheel chair sections are equipped with retractable belts to secure chair and occupant.
The number plates also have the mandated 'EV' symbol (required to assist emergency services in identifying a vehicle as electric).

Snorzac

Quote from: triumph on May 17, 2023, 08:41:54 PM(Perhaps Snorzac could elaborate on the pros and cons of achieving smooth braking.)
I believe the last time you were on my bus I was in an electric so hopefully my braking was up to standard.

The key to achieving smooth braking (and acceleration for that matter) sounds very obvious and that is remembering that you are in an electric bus. Braking earlier is certainly key to smooth braking in the electrics as the retarder or regenerative braking is a little less sensitive than a conventional diesel bus.

Likewise accelerating the buses are designed with a feature that will cut power if you accelerate too quickly so as to keep the ride safe, I've heard a lot of drivers express dislike this function however by taking care to remember that I am driving an electric bus and gradually feeding the power in (rather than flat to the floor and easing off like you would in a diesel bus) I rarely see this feature activate.

Bus 400

Quote from: triumph on May 17, 2023, 07:52:36 PMNot a reason to roll over and give up. Pressure needs to be applied for product improvement.
Incidentally at a recent meeting I attended a TC representative referred to design and acquisition in relation to the new LRVs needed for the extension of LR to Commonwealth Park.
Most certainly not a TC only issue & is system wide. But no one procuring public transportation vehicles actually has any knowledge of what's a passenger needs. 
Listening to the sales pitch from the manufacturers, not specifying what they, as the purchaser, want. 

Bus967

    Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 17, 2023, 01:45:12 AM
    • The Woden Temp Interchange provides no protection from Canberra's erratic weather what so ever:
      -white concrete making the sun reflection blinding when you step off a bus in summer.
      -Seats placed in line with the openings of the shipping containers so you're in direct morning/evening sun glare.
      -No wind protection unless you stand at the ticket vendor or Pt1-2.
    That windy/rainy day a couple weeks ago was absolute hell. Sitting in those containers (esp Pt3-4) while trying to stay at normal-ish body temperature while it's windy AF for 30 minutes is impossible. Excluding Dickson and Belconnen at least (most) of the other past/present interchanges had/have something you can hide in/behind.

    Honestly this is exactly what I loved the old Woden interchange, especially those glass shelters that used to have electric heating in them and the canopy was always super wide so if you were getting wet or anything like that or getting cold from the wind you could always try and make a couple of steps back and not actually get superduper Cold/wet, and honestly if the bus stops are gonna be like the light rail stops, I'm not really looking forward to it because I know those don't really offer much protection From the elements

    triumph

    Quote from: Snorzac on May 17, 2023, 08:59:22 PMI believe the last time you were on my bus I was in an electric so hopefully my braking was up to standard.

    The key to achieving smooth braking (and acceleration for that matter) sounds very obvious and that is remembering that you are in an electric bus. Braking earlier is certainly key to smooth braking in the electrics as the retarder or regenerative braking is a little less sensitive than a conventional diesel bus.

    Likewise accelerating the buses are designed with a feature that will cut power if you accelerate too quickly so as to keep the ride safe, I've heard a lot of drivers express dislike this function however by taking care to remember that I am driving an electric bus and gradually feeding the power in (rather than flat to the floor and easing off like you would in a diesel bus) I rarely see this feature activate.

    I have yet to identify you, but am sure you would have been 'up to standard' or better.

    Thank you for your interesting and informative comments.

    The protection factor on acceleration goes beyond passenger comfort. There is a need to avoid excessive current draw to protect the battery and electrical power system generally. Back in the day and relating mainly to Hobart systems, if too much power was demanded in either tram or electric bus (nothing new about electric buses, what is new is the source of power, battery in lieu of trolley wires) the circuit breakers would operate (these were bulky shoebox sized items). Power would be shut of instantly with a loud bang from the breakers and a violent jolt as acceleration instantly disappeared. The driver would then manually have to reset the circuit breakers (hand sized levers). The Yutong's protection system is so much better, as would be expected these days.

    Busnerd

    Sounds like it may also be to avoid spinning the wheels, as all the power is instantly available on EV's, putting your foot flat to the floor from a stop will generally cause the wheels to spin as it struggles to gain traction under full power, this would be another benefit of limiting the available power which again would not really affect most drivers.

    Sylvan Loves Buses

    Is that probably why the 712 hybrid was always so sluggish to get into 2nd gear?

    Sylvan Loves Buses

    I saw something this morning that confused me. According to IP Australia, the ACT Government still holds the right to the old ACTION logos until 2031 (god knows why it's for that long), but since the introduction of 'Transport Canberra', which as far as I've seen is the 'new ACTION', everything has been slowly changing to that name. So why in the hell would the ACTION logo that is being slowly removed from here and there (excluding off of the vehicles that had it on before this change) be on Bus 809, what the actual f**k?

    triumph

    Are the Yutongs being used at weekends? Never seem come across any, or find reference to them in Any Trip on weekend days.

    triumph

    Quote from: triumph on June 10, 2023, 05:58:16 PMAre the Yutongs being used at weekends? Never seem come across any, or find reference to them in Any Trip on weekend days.
    Still can't find any sign of them. Nor has anyone refuted my inference that they are not being used at weekends.

    Why on earth is this happening? Electric buses are supposed to be helping defeat global warming, and improve community health by reducing diesel particulates.
    They should thus be used as intensively as possible, not apparently garaged at weekends. Lazy administration, or fundamental flaws we haven't heard about?

    Sylvan Loves Buses

    Probably. Given how they can't make up their minds whether bus809 is even an ACTION or TC bus just goes to show they don't know what they're doing sometimes. The world is doomed anyway, what's a couple more weekends of some more reliable buses gonna do >:D .

    Buzz Killington

    The ACTION logo would be the result of some outdated design specs.

    Snorzac

    #29
    BUS807 is currently trialling a "white noise" pedestrian warning rather than the bell, whilst I can't speak to its effectiveness as a pedestrian warning, as a driver it's a lot less intrusive than the bell