January 19, 2022, 04:28:08 AM

New Stop on Southern Cross Drive

Started by ajw373, November 20, 2012, 06:58:51 PM

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ajw373

By the looks of it new stops are going in on Southern Cross Drive between Florey Drive and Moyes Crescent (outside the tennis club). Personally cannot think of a worse place to put a bloody stop, especially westbound where it will be at the bottom of a hill where no bugger sticks to the 60km/h speed limit and the stop is in one of the silliest form one lanes in Canberra. Why or why when they put in the lights did they not make it two lanes to the lights with the right hand lane being right hand turn only rather than half merge and then have a turn lane? I say half merge because the right turn lane has now been extended and starts smack in the middle of the merge. Grrr

Also not sure exactly who the stop is meant to serve as only the 313, 317 and 318 (plus of course some 700 buses) will go past it. Cannot see why anyone would get off a 317 or a 318 there and 313 users are served by the stop in Florey Drive, which now has 'safer' access to Kippax via the new traffic lights and a pedestrian tunnel. So why bother.

Also it looks like the east bound stop won't have a shelter, unlike most of them that now line the route to Belconnen. Odd because it would be a perfect place to advertise, just not to stop for a bus!

The Love Guru

You sure its not just an extension of the cycle path there?
Also it is routes 318/319 that would pass there, however there are no plans to for these routes to travel via the orginal route (ie SthX-Starke) until they install a set of lights at the Starke/SthX intersection.

ajw373

99.99% certain they are bus stop pads, as well as an extensive amount of footpaths etc and a crossing.

Interestingly was just browsing through the pages here and found a link to a park and ride document and it was suggested one option would be to use the oval car parks in Moyes Crescent with new stops in Southern Cross Drive.

Also interesting about the 318/319 not using Starke Street until lights go in. Had thought nothing was on the horizon there due to cost, tough do note there are some kind markers have gone in recently around the intersection. Not the normal wooden surveyors markers but some tube like ones.

The Love Guru

As the original plan was to have lights at Starke street the idea of bus stops near Moyes Cres makes sense. However in the foreseable future buses will continue to use Moyes Cres as it is too dangerous to negotiate the right hand turn out of Starke into Southern Cross.

Those plastic pipes you saw were also put in when they did the lights at Florey/SthX so might be a sign of things to come, however as you stated, i did hear that there was funding available.

Barry Drive

From the TAMS website:

QuoteDesign for the works on Starke Street have been completed. The intersection has been redesigned to have an additional lane to provide safer right turn movements out of Starke Street onto Southern Cross Drive. The redesign of Starke Street does not preclude the possibility of the signalisation of the intersection in the future. Works for Starke Street intersection upgrade are due to be commenced on completion and opening of the works on Florey Drive, due to be late September 2012. Works for this intersection are estimated to be completed in December 2012.

The only sign of work commencing is the pegs near the left turn from Southern Cross into Starke.

Also found on the ACT internet: work has commenced on the Kippax Park and Ride. Having a quick look - yes they do appear to be making provision for bus stops near the Southern Cross/Moyes intersection. However I do not agree that they are poorly sited, but they are entirely unnecessary if the 318/319 route were to continue to use Moyes Cres.


ajw373

Quote from: ACTbusspotter on November 22, 2012, 12:03:38 PM
From the TAMS website:

The only sign of work commencing is the pegs near the left turn from Southern Cross into Starke.

Also found on the ACT internet: work has commenced on the Kippax Park and Ride. Having a quick look - yes they do appear to be making provision for bus stops near the Southern Cross/Moyes intersection. However I do not agree that they are poorly sited, but they are entirely unnecessary if the 318/319 route were to continue to use Moyes Cres.

Unless they start doing something a December 2012 finish isn't looking too good.

Also why do you think the site of these stops is ok? As mentioned it is at the bottom of a hill where most don't do the 60km/h limit and is smack bang in the middle of a merge. Either of these IMO make them unsuitable. Just asking out of curiosity not to start and argument.

Barry Drive

Quote from: ajw373 on November 22, 2012, 12:46:44 PM
Also why do you think the site of these stops is ok?
To put it another way: where else can the stop go? (I assume you have no concerns about the east-bound side of Southern Cross). The stop cannot be located before the Moyes Cres intersection as it is too steep and it cannot be located any closer to Florey Drive. The best spot is just after the Moyes Cres intersection where the ground is level.

Looking at the AECOM study, the proposal is to alter the lane markings on Southern Cross Drive. A Form One Lane will occur further up - after Chave St with a left turn only lane into Moyes Cres and a painted traffic island immediately before the bus stop (see page 60).

ajw373

November 22, 2012, 01:50:19 PM #7 Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 01:52:11 PM by ajw373
Quote from: ACTbusspotter on November 22, 2012, 01:29:54 PM
To put it another way: where else can the stop go? (I assume you have no concerns about the east-bound side of Southern Cross). The stop cannot be located before the Moyes Cres intersection as it is too steep and it cannot be located any closer to Florey Drive. The best spot is just after the Moyes Cres intersection where the ground is level.

Looking at the AECOM study, the proposal is to alter the lane markings on Southern Cross Drive. A Form One Lane will occur further up - after Chave St with a left turn only lane into Moyes Cres and a painted traffic island immediately before the bus stop (see page 60).

The best place for the stops, considering the park and ride will be in Moyes Crescent is not surprisingly Moyes Crescent. I don't buy the argument in para 3.2.5 that routing the buses via Moyes Crescent will create a (significant) time penalty compared to going out via Starke Street, in fact I would say that it is actually the quicker route and clearly serves more than going out onto Starke Street.

Though of course I will conceed my point is based on the buses that are running today whereas the document you linked to above has a very different route structure, including a route (349) that appears to continue down Southern Cross Drive and will bypass Kippax altogether.

Interesting that Southern Cross Drive will be modified by moving the merge further up the hill. Whilst not such a bad idea there is no way to get away from the fact the west bound bus stop will be at the bottom of the hill, and even with the merge removed the right hand turn onto Florey Drive will still start at this point. It will also be a bit dicey for those needing to cross the road at this point. Whilst they should be using the underpass futher down, fact is they will cross at the stop, as evidenced by the fact they are building the paths right now to do so. As for the east bound stop, correct I don't have any great issue with it's location from a saftey perspective (except the issue of crossing the westbound lane), but as mentioned think the buses should be using Moyes Crescent with the stops there.

So in one way they have made the intersection of SXD and Florey Drive safer for all but are going to create new and different problems, involving pedestrians, that are avoidable 100m further on.

The Love Guru

Typical ACT government action, a consultant said that it should go there, so that is where they put it. Obviously there isn't anybody with a clue where the buses go making these decisions. Building these stops is putting the cart before the horse (Starke/SthX intersection upgrade should be done first). The only advantage i can see is allowing people to park on Moyes Cres and then catch the 703 direct to the city. Of course, putting more passenger pressure on to what is already one of the most crowded routes on the network isn't a pearl of wisdom, but isn't unexpected on previous form.

ajw373

Looks like they are going to start some roadworks at the corner of Starke Street and Sothern Cross Drive (Kippax end). A small worksite has been established on the land between Macca's and the vet. Judging by the yard size and what is inside I don't imagine it is going to be anything too major, maybe just a bit of intersection widening like they did on Hardwick Cres near the bus stop.

Barry Drive

Bike and Ride cage will also be installed at this location (Southern Cross / Moyes).

Barry Drive

The Form one lane has gone in. As have some bike rails, but no sign of a cage yet. Perhaps they won't bother seeing how poorly used they are elsewhere.

Bus 400

The 'Form One Lane' has moved to half way down the hill. Traffic island things have been painted to effectively close the left hand lane until the bus stop, with the exception of a small section near Moyes Crescent. The bus stop has also been line marked.

ajw373

Like most road projects the new merge is a dogs breakfast. For starters they moved the merge but haven't moved the sign, nor do they have a sign advising of changed traffic conditions. Really bad considering the merge is just after a slight crest in the road making it hard to see if there are other cars out. Sent a comment to the fix my roads website and received a reply they would send someone out to look. That was about 3 weeks ago now.

As for the merge this is one case where a left to right merge or even have the left lane must turn left at Moyes Cres would have been much better than a form one lane. The way it has been done the vehicles in the left must move completely to the right and the vehicles in the right just go straight on. Seen a few cases where cars in the right think they have right of way and don't give room to vehicles in front but in the left.

Bus 400

Quote from: ajw373 on January 07, 2013, 08:12:15 PM
Like most road projects the new merge is a dogs breakfast. For starters they moved the merge but haven't moved the sign, nor do they have a sign advising of changed traffic conditions. Really bad considering the merge is just after a slight crest in the road making it hard to see if there are other cars out. Sent a comment to the fix my roads website and received a reply they would send someone out to look. That was about 3 weeks ago now.

Most outdoor workers are on holidays over January. So unless some ultra urgent work is required, nothing gets down. For most in the these industries, January is the only chance they have. So let them enjoy it.

Quote from: ajw373 on January 07, 2013, 08:12:15 PM
The way it has been done the vehicles in the left must move completely to the right and the vehicles in the right just go straight on. Seen a few cases where cars in the right think they have right of way and don't give room to vehicles in front but in the left.

So it is working how any "Form One Lane" works in Canberra.

ajw373

January 08, 2013, 07:30:33 AM #15 Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 07:31:31 AM by ajw373
Quote from: Bus 400 on January 08, 2013, 12:19:30 AM
Most outdoor workers are on holidays over January. So unless some ultra urgent work is required, nothing gets down. For most in the these industries, January is the only chance they have. So let them enjoy it.

They should have moved the sign or put up a changed traffic conditions sign when they painted the road. It isn't brain surgery. Also it was fix my road I contacted who unless I am mistaken are ACT public servants who were working the week before Christmas, a few days between Christmas and New Year and who are now back at work, though yes maybe in a reduced capacity.

Quote from: Bus 400 on January 08, 2013, 12:19:30 AM
So it is working how any "Form One Lane" works in Canberra.

Nope that's my point. This one is very much different. Most form one lanes in Canberra after the merge the newly merged lane carries on from the centre of the the two lanes meaning it is clear that both lanes have equal priority at the merge. Whether people do this is debatable though. This one is like what you would commonly see in NSW where the merged lane is 100% in line with the right hand lane and the car in the left has to move completely over. I have no issue with that and on this road it makes sense, but what doesn't is the fact they have done it as a form one lane rather than having the left lane terminating and having to merge right. If you look at the road rules linked below and go to rule 148, example 1 on page 134 this is how I reckon the merge should have been done.

From the 3 weeks or so that I have used it on a daily basis I get the impression cars in the right hand lane think that they have the right of way when the merge rules for this type of form one lane says the vehicle in front does. Fortunately the traffic island that now occupies what was the left lane after the merge is painted rather than being concrete, as I have seen several cars and 1 bus have to use this to avoid an accident due to them not being able to merge in time due to cars in the right not giving way when they should.

http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/Reports/ARRFeb12.pdf

The Love Guru

Perhaps they should have installed a 'Left lane must turn left' 'Buses excepted' instead of forming one lane. The onus is then on people using the left lane to merge safely, whilst allowing buses to continue into the new placed bus stops.

Even better, they could have used their brains and put the bus stops in a location that isnt dangerous. I have a feeling that when a bus is in the stop it is going to impede vision for vehicles attempting to turn right out of Moyes Cres.

Buzz Killington

Quote from: ajw373 on January 08, 2013, 07:30:33 AM
They should have moved the sign or put up a changed traffic conditions sign when they painted the road. It isn't brain surgery.

Similar thing happened when they changed the lines around on Erindale Drive between Sulwood and Sternberg when a bike lane was added. The changes meant the centre lane ended up being far too narrow, so they moved the form one lane a few hundred metres back and scrubbed out the lines, but left the signs at the old merge point for several weeks..

ajw373

Lodged some feedback with 'Fix My Road' over the merge not long after it went in, specifically about the lack of any signage. Anyway this afternoon I received a call from someone from Roads ACT advising that the new merge is, surprise surprise problematic and that they will be looking at changing it.

Apart from visibility, which is one of the issues I raised apparently traffic using the u-turn bay to access the northern side of Southern Cross Drive is also causing issues. No surprise really when you consider the u turn bay is so close to the new merge. I wonder if there have only been close calls or if it has caused an accident or two?

ajw373

Still waiting for the form one lane to be fixed, despite being told this was on the agenda.

Also I notice that the two stops are not in service, despite the fact that the 313 and 703 goes past. Now whilst I appreciate they were put in for the park and ride, and the other 300 series buses that use Southern Cross still turn short of these stops you would think they would at least let the 313 adn 703 stop there if need be.

smitho

understand that the 318 and 319s now go past these yet to be commissionewd stoips.

Bus 400

As of last week, the bus stops were not up to the proper standards & not serviced.

Barry Drive

Word has been received that these new stops will be open for service from Monday 12 August 2013. Bus stop blades have been installed.

Barry Drive

Quote from: ACTbusspotter on December 03, 2012, 11:31:41 AM
Bike and Ride cage will also be installed at this location (Southern Cross / Moyes).
Fairly sure the AECOM study showed a bike cage at Moyes Cr. But a recent visit to Kippax revealed a new Bike & Ride facility being built next to the terminus.