Renaults a go go: the final frontier

Started by Barry Drive, October 24, 2022, 10:06:01 AM

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Barry Drive

With the (presumed) imminent arrival of 26 new Scanias and the DDA deadline of 31 December fast approaching, this topic is to record the final movements of the remaining Renault PR100.2s

To recap, there are 39 in total: 927-963 at Belconnen (23), 969-982 at Tuggeranong (14) and 943-944 as trainers.

But will 927 be withdrawn first, or will they be removed based on mechanical grounds? And will they keep some as trainers, despite the remainder being withdrawn?

triumph

Umm. The 2023 on-line 1st Term timetable shows a number of services without the wheelchair symbol. So apparently the non-compliant deadline is going to be missed, with at least some of the Renaults soldiering on for a while?

Sylvan Loves Buses

With how delayed the arrival of the new/leased/electric buses are it's certinaly looking this way.

Barry Drive

From what I've heard, there should be some Yutong electric buses arriving this month. So expect there will be some Renaults withdrawn by the start of Term 1.

I can only assume that TC have been given an exemption/extension for the 100% low floor deadline.

743

#4
Quote from: Barry Drive on December 13, 2022, 08:46:47 AMI can only assume that TC have been given an exemption/extension for the 100% low floor deadline.

In news which I'm sure will surprise no-one, the Renaults are out this morning. Here is 938 coming in to Dickson just before xx:00.


Bus It

I saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!

I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.

Bus It

Quote from: Bus It on January 03, 2023, 02:21:16 PMI saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!

I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.

***Correction it was 931***

triumph

Quote from: Bus It on January 03, 2023, 02:21:16 PMI saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!

I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.

Actually, what are the realistic consequences for simply ignoring the requirement for a few weeks? Just maybe.....

triumph

Also, just been to Melbourne, there are plenty of older high floor trams about, so presumably exemptions/extensions are available.

Bus 400

According to (https://piperalderman.com.au/insight/bus-disability-access-requirements-due-31-december-2022-are-you-ready/), it looks like 5 year extensions can be & has been granted. 

It's not just buses that have to be accessible, but also bus stops & public transport stations. This work is still continuing in Canberra. 

Barry Drive

Quote from: Bus 400 on January 04, 2023, 06:15:18 PMIt's not just buses that have to be accessible, but also bus stops & public transport stations. This work is still continuing in Canberra.
I thought they had longer to do the bus stops, so I looked it up. And you're right - bus stops, infrastructure is also meant to be 100% by 2022.

So there's definitely been an extension granted, just a question of how long is it?

Quote from: triumph on January 03, 2023, 11:25:02 PMAlso, just been to Melbourne, there are plenty of older high floor trams about,
For trams and trains the 100% deadline is 31 December 2032. But there's already doubt that can be reached, given that Victoria has only ordered 100 G class trams (so far).

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Barry Drive on January 05, 2023, 01:52:33 PMSo there's definitely been an extension granted, just a question of how long is it?
Forever please lol.

Also what does an accessible bus stop look like?

Bus 400

Main points of a DDA compliant bus stop are:

1. Tactile markings pointing towards the kerb
2. Step free access to & from the kerb. Which is why boarding points or shelters will sometimes be moved. But why all new/modified stops have a flat surface. 

Depending on the bus stop location, dictates the amount of work required. 

But has also been hinted as to why so many stops were cut in the last major network review. 

triumph

Quote from: Bus 400 on January 05, 2023, 08:33:00 PMMain points of a DDA compliant bus stop are:

1. Tactile markings pointing towards the kerb
2. Step free access to & from the kerb. Which is why boarding points or shelters will sometimes be moved. But why all new/modified stops have a flat surface.

Depending on the bus stop location, dictates the amount of work required.

But has also been hinted as to why so many stops were cut in the last major network review.
A very perverse outcome indeed. If not useable by people with a disability, then no one can. And the alternative is just as far away and inconvenient for the disabled customer anyway.

I noticed the same in Queensland - several country towns between Toowoomba and Charleville had lost Westlander train service due to non-compliant stations. Also, near where I live there was a stop with no path linking to the adjacent pedestrian underpass path - a compliant path would need an expensive retaining wall, I was told, so would not be provided - I won that safety issue, there is a compliant (I think) path now and no retaining wall.

This issue of disability access is drifting away from Renaults a Go Go, and cuts across infrastructure, vehicle, and service categories, and is likely to be on-going. Perhaps there is a need for a new category to be considered by our administrators?
 

743

There was some media commentary this week regarding the use of the Renaults in to 2023. I observed what seemed to be more of the Irisbus fleet following this, and not a single Renault some days (although, unlike Michelle Yeoh, I'm not everywhere all at once). It will be interesting to see what happens from the return of school term.

Sylvan Loves Buses

The only Renault shifts during the holiday timetable (aka the slightly altered 2020 Christmas Timetable) are a couple Gungahlin, City and Belconnen routes first thing in the morning, then pretty much nothing else for the rest of the day except one that comes to Woden for a couple 66s and 59s - they're all Belconnen shifts too I seem to recal.
It certainly will be interesting to see what happens at the start of the term, I'll be monitoring anytrip for most of the first week. It'll either be very disappointing or super wierd.

Barry Drive

#16
Quote from: 743 on January 14, 2023, 01:03:34 PMThere was some media commentary this week regarding the use of the Renaults in to 2023.
And yet no one seemed to care that some/many bus stops are not DDA compliant.

It's not quite as bad as Melbourne, where they run low floor trams but have non-accessible stops.

But IMO, the "outrage" about having non-accessible buses still in service is more about political point scoring than a genuine concern about MIPs.*

And yes, they do appear to be able to operate Renault-free in school holidays, but I doubt it will be possible once the school term starts.

[* MIP = Mobility Impaired Person ]

743


triumph

Quote from: Barry Drive on January 14, 2023, 04:22:38 PM....
It's not quite as bad as Melbourne, where they run low floor trams but have non-accessible stops.
''''
Had a look at the numbers, and low floor trams are in the minority.There are 200 low floor trams in the service fleet, BUT the number of high floor trams (excluding the City Circle service heritage fleet) in the service fleet are between 326 (Yarra trams) and 306 (vicsig). Taking the vicsig number, low floor trams are just fractionally under 40% of the fleet. They have a long way to go.
There are a number of accessible stops, with more being developed. There is, however, a vast number of stops (eg about 46 on the Essendon route alone, and multiply by 2 for the bidirectional aspect), so it seems to me unlikely and impractical to develop them all. What will result? Wholesale stop closures, the perverse outcome? Or will on board facilities be developed to provide street surface level access? Or will the let out clause about impracticality apply?
The Canberra situation leads to speculation about the implications for the local habits of regularly re-arranging routes, diversions at the drop of a construction hat, new routes, trial routes, and so on. Continuing compliance looks as if it might get to be interesting.
As for the Renaults, with gradual relegation to standby status (ref TC media comment) prior to withdrawal, it may well be nigh on impossible to be aware of which one will be last to supply a regular public run and when that happened, unless TC can definitively report it.   

Bus 400

ABC 7:30 did a piece on DDA legislation. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-16/australia-misses-20-year-public-transport-accessibility-target/101858532

73% Melbourne tram stops aren't DDA compliant. However railed transport have til 2032 to be DDA compliant. 

Searching does show this, but there's talk of amending the legislation in 2023, due to costs. They've only had 20 years to complete this project, but ok.....

Sylvan Loves Buses

The driver relieving for the afternoon shift said to me they've turned something off in all the Renault's and that they won't be using them again until the new network, hence why he had an Iris yesterday. I haven't been watching anytrip lately to know for myself and some drivers are less believable than others. To those who know better, what is really happening?

743

https://www.transport.act.gov.au/news/news-and-events-items/january-2023/travel-the-electric-way-on-canberras-first-zero-emissions-bus

QuoteIn the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.

Another acknowledgement that we'll continue to see the Renaults...for now.

Sylvan Loves Buses

The media thing was yesterday? god damnit, I was out yesterday too...

Barry Drive

Quote from: 743 on January 26, 2023, 08:40:33 AM
QuoteIn the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.

That's interesting. The minister's media release ( https://www.actbus.net/travel-the-electric-way-on-canberras-first-zero-emissions-bus/ ) said this:

Quote... unfortunately the old orange Renault diesel buses will continue to be used on the bus network for a short period to maintain services for the community until the replacement buses arrive.
No mention of "minimising use".

Also, "a short period" will probably be six months (if not longer). There is still no indication of when we'll see the first leased Scania, nor how long it will take to put all 26 into service.

But the PR100.2s will definitely be in service on Monday when school resumes. How many will be in use is the only unknown.

Sylvan Loves Buses

#24
Quote from: Barry Drive on January 26, 2023, 01:03:32 PMBut the PR100.2s will definitely be in service on Monday when school resumes. How many will be in use is the only unknown.

I've already identified this many already - blurred out the times for privacy although it's probably not hard to figure out which ones they are. I'll be monitoring the network for the rest of the week to see if these change. Once I have the full day list I'll be able to create a route plan for those interested in riding as many in 1 day as possible.


Barry Drive

#25
Sorry - I know this is public information, but I would prefer that bus numbers not be linked to each trip.

You may list the trips, and list which buses are being used but don't link them.

For example:

The following buses were noticed in use today:
928 929 930 935 938 952 958 963 971 981 & 982

And they operated the following trips:


Please also be aware, the runs operated may vary depending on the availability of low floor buses, and new buses entering service - some days more and other days fewer.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Oh yeh my bad, that image indicated the shifts that each bus possessed.

I'm honestly surprised how many there've been. I missed out on a bunch of routes this morning cuz I woke up late and for some reason anytrip won't detect route 46, but I have identified 115+ routes that operated Renault's so far today. Obviously a bunch of these are probably not suppose to have Renualt's on them, I'll be keeping an eye on that over the next couple of weeks.

triumph

Third parties like 'Anytrip' list bus fleet number against each trip. Further, is not the display on the bus of the driver's licence/authority mandated for public information? Not to mention traditional observational methods. Not much real privacy.
Coming from a country town where the name, address, favorite pub/club, team supported, etc and which services a driver operated was common knowledge, I don't understand why the issue of linking buses and specific services is so sensitive here.
The downside of the present rule and thus lack of pattern information, is that if a bus of interest is noted, eg 800, catching up with it later on is a rather lucky guess.
However, as previously pointed out, the Forum administration is an autocracy, not a democracy. So non-linking is the rule, and so be it.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Ye, lotta rule contradictions here, but so be it...
Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on January 30, 2023, 07:33:08 PMI have identified 115+ routes that operated Renault's so far today
Woke up early specially to catch the extra Renault services and any others that weren't tracked yesterday - 46's still won't register. List is over 120 now.

Buzz Killington

Quote from: triumph on January 30, 2023, 11:39:40 PMI don't understand why the issue of linking buses and specific services is so sensitive here. 

It a policy we implemented with consideration of the people behind the wheel of the bus.

Barry Drive

Since this topic was set up with the intention of reporting on Renault withdrawals: 974 & 975 are believed to be in the process of being withdrawn.

triumph

Quote from: Buzz Killington on January 31, 2023, 10:13:59 PMIt a policy we implemented with consideration of the people behind the wheel of the bus.
When the relevant information can now be derived so much more readily, I doubt that that 'consideration' now has any practical relevance; BUT, on reflection, there is a different consideration (which I will not specify here, and is not directly relevant to drivers) which would, I feel, fully justify the present policy remaining in place.

triumph

Renault 927, currently the oldest ACTION service bus in use, was withdrawn at the end of June 2021. 2 months later it was re-activated as a reportedly temporary replacement for an unexpected major failure of an Iris. Recently 3 much newer Renaults 974, 975 and 956 were withdrawn, yet temporary 927 soldiers on = seen today performing a school service.
How TC selects and justifies retirements seems to have no obvious logic. Other one from an old tranche out for one new in.

Buzz Killington

#33
There's only about 18 months difference between 927 and 982 - basically meaningless in the context of 30 year old buses.

My understanding (and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) is that the Renaults being selected for withdrawal are generally based on mechanical issues or accident damage that isn't worth repairing.

triumph

Agreed but 927 on that basis was the worst some 19months ago. Maybe it was fixed and thus now quite good comparatively.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Passed 961 the other day, its park brake alarm was having a tantrum and given the service truck being there I'd say it was there a while. Dunno about 927, but there's a couple others in the fleet I'm expecting to go sooner than others.
Seems odd thought that 974 and 975 got it first, if any of the 70's I would say 972 is a problem bus - but that's only based on what I've heard as a passenger on these buses.

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on February 23, 2023, 08:13:20 PMHow TC selects and justifies retirements seems to have no obvious logic.
While we know when particular buses were built, we have no insight into their maintenance records. It is possible that 956/974/975 had covered more kilometres than other buses, or that they had some mechanical problems (like a troublesome gearbox).

Bus It

I wouldn't even be surprised if servicing (seperate to mechanical faults) is playing a part at this point. Let's say they're due for a fairly major service (perhaps oil, tyres, brakes, comprehensive inspection etc) which may cost around a few thousand every set number of KMs. If 974, 975 & 956 were all due at a certain point, it may have been worthwhile just decommissioning them rather than paying money on servicing. By comparison, there may be much older busses (eg 932) which may have more KMs left until its due.

Bus 524

Quote from: Bus It on February 24, 2023, 08:14:43 PMI wouldn't even be surprised if servicing (seperate to mechanical faults) is playing a part at this point. Let's say they're due for a fairly major service (perhaps oil, tyres, brakes, comprehensive inspection etc) which may cost around a few thousand every set number of KMs. If 974, 975 & 956 were all due at a certain point, it may have been worthwhile just decommissioning them rather than paying money on servicing. By comparison, there may be much older busses (eg 932) which may have more KMs left until its due.
974 was withdrawn due to it having another major mechanical failure and is now being used as parts at Belconnen and 975 and 956 I'm not sure about. But 956 is now the new parts bus at Tuggeranong and 975 is next to 974 at Belco Depot which is unknown why its there but is currently parked there.

triumph

All sound points. One other aspect, which in the scheme of things is probably not particularly significant, is that it is my perception that retirements usually seem to be from the depot that has just received a new bus.

Bus It

Quote from: Bus 524 on February 24, 2023, 10:45:48 PM974 was withdrawn due to it having another major mechanical failure and is now being used as parts at Belconnen and 975 and 956 I'm not sure about. But 956 is now the new parts bus at Tuggeranong and 975 is next to 974 at Belco Depot which is unknown why its there but is currently parked there.
I used to get that bus everyday up until early this year. It's such a shame as it always seemed like a good one and made no unusual sounds or anything. I was really hoping it was going to be sold and given a second life somewhere... Sigh...

triumph

For anyone who might be interested.
Around 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I mean I have a spreadsheet with 130+ Renault routes for the whole of every day on it. It won't have all of them as I've noticed the occasional extra one here and there, but for those interested I can share that. (in private message of course)

triumph

Quote from: triumph on March 02, 2023, 03:43:44 PMAround 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.
Again today but like the day quoted, though 3 at Platform simultaneously, unfortunately not all nose to tail being separated by another bus. Have seen all three one behind the other on another occasion a while back.

Sylvan Loves Buses

So one is always leaving 10-15 minutes late, good to know for if my day plan ever changes.

triumph

Whilst I said departing, they appeared to have lots of school kids around but maybe one was finishing a run, still departing though but only to Cohen St Interchange if that is the case - will need to look more carefully. My main point was 3 at once.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well according to my list, around 3:50pm Renault's are on: 40, 41 and 42 (all departures). The only arrivals into Belconnen is a 31, but to see it at the same time as those 3 it'd have to be very late - it probably converts onto one of those anyway.

triumph

Yesterday the rte 31 arrived on time.

Bus It

I'd always wondered why they decided to withdraw the old Renault MK2 artics (983-989) 10 years before their older standard sized counterparts. Seems like they would have been ideal for school services particularly in the morning allowing some of the newer artics for rapids. Hmmm, I'm sure they had their reasons.

Either way, it would have been nice to have an extra 10 years of Renault artics.

triumph

Renault 930 seen this morning passing through City on an R3 service to Spence.
Wonder why there is such a shortage of other buses that Renaults are appearing on R services which are supposed to be 100% accessible? (At any time, Renaults were exceedingly rare on R3 services.)

Also 927 was seen today so the oldest, briefly retired, bus continues to be active.

Sylvan Loves Buses

They're more reliable than buses half their age lol

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on March 15, 2023, 07:31:34 PMWonder why there is such a shortage of other buses that Renaults are appearing on R services which are supposed to be 100% accessible?

This might be the reason:
Quote from: 743 on January 26, 2023, 08:40:33 AMIn the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.

What might have happened is that in order to minimise Renault use, all available low floor buses were put into service: only for a bus to breakdown, or not start. With all low floors in use, the only available replacement would be a Renault.

Busnerd

All services are meant to be 100% accessible, not just rapids. People will just have to choose to wait for the next service as they have done for 30 years or just wait 3 months until all the high floors are gone.

triumph

Quote from: Barry Drive on March 18, 2023, 07:19:38 PMThis might be the reason:
What might have happened is that in order to minimise Renault use, all available low floor buses were put into service: only for a bus to breakdown, or not start. With all low floors in use, the only available replacement would be a Renault.
There is actually a case for restricting replacement Renaults to the frequent R services as the wait for a low floor is minimised, but this may not be practical as many shifts seem to be a mix of R and Local trips.
But referring to Barry Drive's post. I had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays? Short of a political or TC announcement providing some clarification, we are unlikely to know.
The present circumstances still imply that determining the last public and school services operated by Renaults may be a challenge. 
Whatever, for those keen on Renaults not everything is an ill-wind.

 

Bus It

Quote from: triumph on March 20, 2023, 10:45:22 PMThere is actually a case for restricting replacement Renaults to the frequent R services as the wait for a low floor is minimised, but this may not be practical as many shifts seem to be a mix of R and Local trips.
But referring to Barry Drive's post. I had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays? Short of a political or TC announcement providing some clarification, we are unlikely to know.
The present circumstances still imply that determining the last public and school services operated by Renaults may be a challenge. 
Whatever, for those keen on Renaults not everything is an ill-wind.

 
Given that I've seen far more Irisbuses around even during shoulder periods, this could be contributing to more maintenance issues/breakdowns than before.

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on March 20, 2023, 10:45:22 PMI had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays?
I think: neither. There's no evidence of any surge in breakdowns, nor of any understaffing or backlog in workshops.

A single Renault on an R3 is simply that: a single occurrence. My explanation was that it was due to bad timing: a breakdown (or vehicle unavailability) that occurred at a time when there were no spare low floor buses - due to a policy to limit the use of PR100.2s wherever possible (which may also have been exacerbated by Irisbus unavailability as posited by Bus It.)

** Also it's only a theory **

Meanwhile (getting back to topic): Tuggeranong has only 7 Renaults left in service. They may not last past the end of School Term 1.

triumph

Quote from: triumph on March 02, 2023, 03:43:44 PMAround 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.
The opportunity still exists, but luck is involved in having all 3 at the platform simultaneously, and even more so nose to tail. Today each of the 3 services (all conformed outbound) arrived and departed separately (one was 927, still active).
The opportunity will probably continue at least until 723, etc. enter service, which may be only a matter of a few working days now, from the Belconnen Depot.
(It only seems possible at present to check by observation as Any Trip, when I look, does not show live detail for route 46, which with 40 and 41 are the routes involved.)

Sylvan Loves Buses

#57
I'm just glad my 71/72s are still getting them. I suppose given they're the first active Renault shifts for both morning and afternoons the drivers are getting first picks, but with only 6 or something Tuggy Renault's left in service and Anytrip not always picking them up, it's getting tricky.
I finally got around to trying out my plan again last week, sadly only running the morning section of it as I was too tired by midday, still managed to get 5 Belco Renault runs in a row without fail. Will have to attempt the second half at some point before it's too late - still haven't ridden a couple of the 950s one last time (rip 956). Almost got 944 on that day too lol, why are they still training drivers on them? Seems such a waste at this point.

743

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on March 31, 2023, 05:58:03 AMAlmost got 944 on that day too lol, why are they still training drivers on them? Seems such a waste at this point.
The driver training may not be Renault-specific, rather it might be general heavy vehicle familiarisation (lane placement, turning, weight etc), route familiarisation and so on. Given there are two vehicles already specifically allocated as trainers, it means they can be used if and when required (including peak hour) without taking away from the 'active' fleet.
It does raise the question though of the future of the training fleet. Would it be worth holding on to two vehicles which would no longer be standard within the fleet? Despite them being trainers, maintenance and spare parts would still be required. Time will tell, I guess.

Barry Drive

#59
Quote from: 743 on March 31, 2023, 08:02:18 AMIt does raise the question though of the future of the training fleet.
I did pose that question at the start of this topic.

The minister has stated that each new bus will be a "one for one" replacement for a Renault PR100.2 - and so far this is exactly what has occurred:

974 - 800
975 - 808
956 - 722
973 - 809
978 - 811
977 - 807
981 - 810
969 - 806
970 - 802
972 - 801

But: they will be getting 38 new buses to replace 37 Renaults. So in theory they may be able to afford to transfer two low floor buses to become permanent trainers (e.g 390 & 391). However, there's also the question of whether 693 is permanently withdrawn and needs to be replaced (or does Belconnen give up another bus to cover for it)?

Edit: OK, maybe not MANs - they aren't old enough to be relegated to be trainers. Irisbuses would be preferable for now.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Barry Drive on October 24, 2022, 10:06:01 AMTo recap, there are 39 in total: 927-963 at Belconnen (23), 969-982 at Tuggeranong (14) and 943-944 as trainers.
Based on best available information (and subject to change), 3 PR100.2s remain in service at Tuggeranong (979 980 & 982), with 944 & 976 now being used as trainers.

Belconnen has withdrawn 929 956 & 961.

Sylvan Loves Buses

#61
Having ridden 980 this morning, I can confirm a least one of those ;)
Nice while it lasts to have my normal 6-7am routes back.

triumph

The 3 Renaults coming through Platform 2 at Westfield Belconnen just before 4pm weekdays is still happening but mostly not together. Seen today passing separately.

triumph

With slow deliveries, the three weekday Renault departures from Platform 2 in the 10min up to 4pm are still happening, but my recent few observations have not found them at the platform together.
With the news (see 26 Scanias thread) that future deliveries are expected to be one per week, at one for one retirements, it seems the Renaults will now be soldiering on for another 4 to 5 months.   


triumph

Expected that. You didn't disappoint.
(BTW Platform 2 at Westfield, Belconnen)

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well I'm practically never up around Belconnen cuz I'm a valley boy, but it's good to know the Belco ones are (mostly) still on the same shifts as they were a couple months ago.

triumph

With the resumption of full services after the school holidays, the opportunity to perhaps see 3 Renaults simultaneously on departing services from Platform 2 at Westfield, Belconnen around 3.55pm has disappeared. Only 3 services around this time are now shown in the on-line TT as being non-disability suitable. Rtes 42 around 3.35pm, 45 around 3.45pm, and 41 around 3.55pm. So now normally one at a time.

Sylvan Loves Buses

The ones around 8 in the morning are still going. Saw a bunch on Monday.

Barry Drive

#69
Quote from: Barry Drive on April 01, 2023, 01:40:42 PMso far this is exactly what has occurred:

974 - 800
975 - 808
956 - 722
973 - 809
978 - 811
977 - 807
981 - 810
969 - 806
970 - 802
972 - 801
To update the list of withdrawn buses:

976*
971 - 803
961 - 804
929 - 805
955 - 723
930* - 724
952 - 725
962* - 726
939 - 727
935 - 728

* transferred to training duties

triumph

Article in today's Riot Act on the new Custom Denning Element, attributes Minister Steel as advising that due to delays in the leasing of diesel buses, the Renaults will not be phased out until early 2024. That's a bit vague still - how early I wonder?

Barry Drive

It's deliberately vague. To date, BusTech have failed to meet their commitments - so why should the minister make definite announcements when he has no direct control over them?


Barry Drive

Update: if the promised 9 Scanias arrive this year, they should be enough to replace the remaining Belconnen Renaults. Assuming they can get them into service, Belconnen may not have any Renaults after December 2023 - although this is massively optimistic.

triumph

Quote from: Barry Drive on October 25, 2023, 11:19:45 PMUpdate: if the promised 9 Scanias arrive this year, they should be enough to replace the remaining Belconnen Renaults. Assuming they can get them into service, Belconnen may not have any Renaults after December 2023 - although this is massively optimistic.

Idle to speculate what has changed at the manufacturer? All sorts of possibilities including the completion of another contract allowing more production to be allocated to TC, a lot full of near finished buses (like at times Boeing and Airbus with new planes) awaiting specific parts from sub-suppliers with a 'container' due, supply of chassis at improved rate, specialist staff returning from leave, etc. and combinations of factors.

Fleetwiki says now 15 active Renaults. 748 has yet to result in a retirement. So 15 less 4 Elements, gives 11, the 9 due(??) gives 2 in service. If 693 returns before 2024 school starts, that leaves 1. Perhaps the return of the bus having its floor replaced might release this last Renault unless another floor replacement is pending, or more deliveries occur in January. So it very much depends on the 9 whether we even see any Renaults in service after the end of term 4 this year, or, less likely, after term 1 starts next year. Other unknowns (to me anyway) is whether any of the school runs are not integrated with other public runs, or runs can be adjusted (some overtime perhaps) to achieve that; in which case the final Renault(s) might end up only doing school runs. The possible flexibility of workshop scheduling and stand-by could also cover the retirement of the last Renault(s).

Bottom line remains, wait and see; and for surety get any wanted rides in ASAP, and at worst, before the end of this school term. 

 

Barry Drive

#75
I did say Belconnen (Depot). The minister/Transport Canberra are not brave enough to suggest all Renaults will be gone by December.

Even if all the buses are delivered as expected, they will still need to be fitted out and drivers trained between now and the end of January, since no Renaults are needed during School Holidays.

Quote from: triumph on October 28, 2023, 10:03:16 PM... a lot full of near finished buses (like at times Boeing and Airbus with new planes) awaiting specific parts from sub-suppliers with a 'container' due, supply of chassis at improved rate, specialist staff returning from leave, etc. and combinations of factors. 
Based on the statement given by the minister: all of the chassis have been delivered (to either BusTech or Scania Adelaide). Other than that, any of the above reasons could be possible. Reading other forums, there was a similar delay to supply of buses to Adelaide, so it wasn't due to Adelaide buses being given priority in the production line.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Barry Drive on February 06, 2024, 12:12:09 PMThe Yutong contract may start delivering buses mid-year, so IF they prioritise the withdrawal of the Renaults before the Scania gas buses, we might have the Renaults fully withdrawn in about August/September.

In Question Time on Wednesday, the minister did confirm that buses delivered under the Yutong contract will be used to withdraw Renaults (rather than Scania L94s, if there are still Renaults in service at the time).

Although there hasn't been a public delivery schedule, previous comments have suggested they will supply 30 buses a year. So my assumption is that in 2024 there will be a minimum of 15, since deliveries are expected to commence in July.

This will (or should) result in all Renaults being withdrawn by years end, one way or another.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Barry Drive on February 08, 2024, 11:57:20 PMThis will (or should) result in all Renaults being withdrawn by years end
These words have been uttered by various people every year for the last 2 decades and yet here we stil are. What a joke all this has become hahaha.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on February 13, 2024, 11:10:02 AMThese words have been uttered by various people every year for the last 2 decades and yet here we stil are.
Last 2 years, at most. (Yes, I'm aware it was hyperbole.)

The thing is, despite what some critics say, the problem of there still being low floor buses in service has two underlying causes:

1. Back in the late 1990s, the government of the time reduced the bus fleet by retiring more buses than were delivered. And then once the last of the Darts were in service, kept withdrawing buses without replacements.

From 1998 until 2004 we did not add one single new bus in service. Had we bought even a small quantity of low floor Mercs or Scanias back then, we would have met the DDA rule by 2022.

2. When the Irisbuses entered service in 2004 (yes: it's now been 20 years), there were around 400* buses in the fleet. Starting with the Irisbuses, ACTION has introduced 443 new buses to the fleet since 2004. So part of the problem was that although they've purchased enough buses to renew the fleet in 20 years, they failed to buy sufficient buses to expand the fleet.

* exact number to be added later

Barry Drive

I've dug out the numbers.

When the last PR100.3 was introduced (in Oct 1996), there were 391 buses in service.

After the last Dart was introduced (in Feb 1998), there were 372 buses in service.

The last of the Mercedes-Benz O.305s was withdrawn in Nov 1999, at which point there were 360 buses in service (of which 258 were PR100.2s).

When the Irisbus Agora Lines entered service in Feb 2004, the fleet count was 351 buses with 230 being PR100.2s.

So in 20 years, we've added over 100 buses to the fleet and gone from 32 low floor buses to 440 - but somehow it's a terrible thing that we fell short of fully retiring the PR100.2s by 15 buses? Maybe the better option was to not expand the fleet so much.

triumph

Another element to complete the picture was when the mandated date for removing non-disability compliant vehicles, etc. was introduced?

To be fair, it should be noted that plenty of other public transport systems are struggling in this space, For example many high floor trams in Melbourne, train station access in Sydney and Brisbane, etc..

The impact of Covid disruption and speed of demand recovery has proved to be much greater than, I think, was anticipated a couple of years ago. It has highlighted the interlocking nature of industry and society both locally and internationally, and the risky and fragile nature of some previously lauded (particularly by conservative elements) efficiency/economic practices - such as 'just in time' delivery in the manufacturing process, reliance on cheaper overseas resources, failure to train and employ school leavers sufficiently, etc..
An interesting question I haven't heard asked and rhetorically 'Why is there now a worker/skills shortage greater than pre-covid, when the then conservative Government provided the generous Job Keeper programme'? 
 

Bus 400

The below is a quote from the Reforms for the Disability Standards
for Accessible Public Transport 2002
Decision Regulation Impact Statement

QuoteThe Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) recognises the central role of public transport in everyday life. The DDA
makes discrimination on the basis of disability unlawful in the provision of public transport services, as it does in other
key areas of public life, such as employment and education.

Trains & trams have til 2032. Only Perth is 100%, but AFAIK, someone took the WA Government/PTA/Transperth to court. 

I can only assume low staff has to do with migration. Capitalism needs a set increase in population to function. For atleast 12 months Australia didn't accept new migrants. There's also been about 10-20 years of public & private sector not wanting to pay to train new employees in technical skills. Expecting the young to go into debt to learn skills, with no guarantee they'll get into the industry. Why pay $20,000 to learn to weld (total guess) when you can earn $30,000 a month on OF or other social media. 

triumph

The pattern of one out for each new bus entering service seems to have been broken with the retirement of 934 and 345. Note that 345 was disability compliant, so 2 new buses need to enter service to just restore the Renault retirement pattern. Perhaps entry to service of some of the 4 CD Element 2s delivered last year is being anticipated.

Snorzac

345 when last out of the depot was seen blocking a lane on the Tuggeranong Parkway in peak hour so it might be safe to say that some sort of catastrophic mechanical failure forcing an early retirement is at play there rather than a planned retirement...

triumph

The impact on the Renault retirements though is just as valid.
Presumably with the gas cylinder life expiry imminent, major repair of 345 with the associated off road delay, made repair not feasible.

triumph

Quote from: triumph on March 23, 2024, 11:09:33 PMThe pattern of one out for each new bus entering service seems to have been broken with the retirement of 934 and 345. Note that 345 was disability compliant, so 2 new buses need to enter service to just restore the Renault retirement pattern. Perhaps entry to service of some of the 4 CD Element 2s delivered last year is being anticipated.

The pattern is not quite as broken as I thought. Though not listed in fleet changes yet, I have just noticed 812 is shown in the Fleet List as delivered on the 27th March. It can't now be far from entering service.

L94UBbusfan

Sorry if this is off topic, but does anyone know why 345, 352 and 365 are withdrawn, and 326 and 342 out of service due to "mechanical reasons. Why were they the first to be withdrawn and not the remaining 3 Tuggeranong Renaults? As my name suggests, I want to get some more rides on the L94UBs before they all go out of service due to "mechanical reasons"

Bus It

Long story short, the CNG Scanias entered service from June 2004 with CNG tanks installed just prior to delivery. These tanks are rated (strictly) to 20 years where they either have to be replaced or the vehicles would need to be converted back to diesel or scrapped. I personally thought TC would have gone down the diesel conversion path however who knows how much this, plus tank removal would cost for each vehicle.

It's now become quite apparent that they intend on scrapping them for now at least when mechanical repair is not economical for only a few months of residual life. Just like the Renaults, were seeing these vehicles being scrapped from some things which would almost be considered routine for them.

triumph

Looks like TC will lose either way. Costly to attend to tanks, or costly to sell 20 year old vehicles to buyers who will undoubtedly factor the same costs into the buying price. Selling, provided enough new replacement are arriving, seems to me to be the better option, as the buses are entering high maintenance age and the replacements will be much better for the environment.
Another issue is the impact on Renault fleet reduction. A further complication is that it has been publicly said that each new bus into service equals one Renault retired.

L94UBbusfan

#89
Ah yes, I had a feeling this was the reason, but was unsure considering the fleet retirement wasn't in fleet order. As you said it really is a lose lose for TC. The remaining Scania and new electric buses better arrive soon or else there will be a short term bus shortage. This would mean the Renaults may stay even longer (Which I personally wouldn't mind!)

Bus 400

I wonder how hard it would be to convert a gas to electric? 

AFAIK, Port Stephens Coaches bought & converted a couple of ex-Brisbane CNG buses. I'm not aware of anyone else attempting this or how the buses are faring. 

triumph

Quote from: Bus It on April 15, 2024, 05:55:52 PMLong story short, the CNG Scanias entered service from June 2004 with CNG tanks installed just prior to delivery. These tanks are rated (strictly) to 20 years where they either have to be replaced or the vehicles would need to be converted back to diesel or scrapped. I personally thought TC would have gone down the diesel conversion path however who knows how much this, plus tank removal would cost for each vehicle.

It's now become quite apparent that they intend on scrapping them for now at least when mechanical repair is not economical for only a few months of residual life. Just like the Renaults, were seeing these vehicles being scrapped from some things which would almost be considered routine for them.

Looking more closely, and ruminating a bit.

Fleetwiki says 320 and 321 were delivered in June 2004 and entered service on the 2nd and 3rd of July. Deliveries are not subsequently noted, and many in-service dates are given only to the year. However 322 to 326 all entered service on 3rd July, and 327 to 332 are just quoted as July '04. 333 to 342 have 2004 only as in-service. 343 is given as entering service in March '05.

Relying on this and the quoted information, it seems that 5 more buses will need retiring within a month and a bit, and further 5 within about 2 months. Then a further 9 before the end of the year.

With 10 buses to go within a couple of months, how is TC going to cope? Are they really expecting another 5 or more deliveries to add to the buses on hand? At the present rate, this seems unlikely, but who knows. The implication is that the Renaults will need to soldier on. If further early gas bus retirements from 2005 deliveries occur due to severe failures and deliveries do not improve (a sleeper might be the rate of Yutong deliveries, now the newly ordered have started arriving), it is even possible to envisage some retired Renaults stored being reactivated (recall 927). TC seem to be on a very thin edge.

To cap it all off, an election is due. A nervous period for TC and the Minister.   

Sylvan Loves Buses

So much for the Renault farewell tour eh, we're gonna get the GAS bus farewell tour first at this rate xD

L94UBbusfan


Barry Drive

#94
I can't see any significant deliveries of new Yutongs until September, at the earliest.

Tuggeranong Depot doesn't have the infrastructure to charge more than 12 buses and the new chargers seem to be many months away.

Additionally, I don't think they're likely to commission new buses with the old ticket system if they have to swap them out again straight away.

This wouldn't have been much of a problem if the Custom Dennings and BusTechs were actually in service by now, as was planned - we would have had enough buses to fully withdraw the Renaults and 7 CNG L94s.

triumph

Which raises the question - what is the minimum number of buses actually needed for a school term weekday to sustain the timetable. Then to add to this, there are buses not available for duty due to heavy repairs and servicing, and further a standby number to cover for accidents and breakdowns. Perhaps if push comes to shove, more servicing can be done off-peak/overnight/weekends. What we don't really know is how close things are to the point when some timetabled services have to be cancelled (unless some retired Renaults can be restored to service) . Clearly with the Renaults still retained in use there is not much fat in the fleet.

Barry Drive's comments highlight the interlocking shambles looming (and in an election year). New buses, though, could be rushed into service with no ticket devices and give free rides. Charging seems to becoming another intractable issue - is it possible to charge more, by utilising daytime when buses are free off peak, and is there any possibility of using chargers elsewhere?

So far the thoughts here have been about TC's own resources. Is it even likely, that short term hires/leases could be arranged from other operators? They are probably having supply issues too, and in the same boat. So probably not.

It looks like the 'interesting times' of that well known oriental curse.



 

Snorzac

There's a lot of factors at play here as highlighted, from observation it seems a lot of Belconnen shifts which come on the road around the 9-10am mark both school term and school holidays tend to be Irisbus or artics which may indicate a shortage of standard low floor buses at Belconnen.

Tuggeranong tends to be pretty sound with bus types appearing on the same shifts/runs however I imagine with the number of buses Tuggeranong are without and the potential more will need to be removed they may soon run into issues. 

At the moment there's also many factors at play which will further limit fleet availability, as highlighted on ACT Bus social media if appears the early work for MyWay + is well underway, if you're travelling down Scollay st you can see a shipping container place in the sheds and in off peak times typically 2-3 buses will be parked there getting worked on, one would assume this is a contractor carrying out the work for NEC so there is a further limiting factor on bus availability.

I think for now they will be fine, further retirements may cause issues however, will be interesting to see what happens on the first really cold morning of the year when a lot of the buses end up at the workshops due to heaters not working as they should, this could make for a very turbulent day as far as service reliability goes with the current state of the fleet. 

L94UBbusfan

For the very short term, TC will be fine. It will be when 5-10 more CNG L94s are retired and before the Yutong's have some significant deliveries they will be having problems with fleet availability (roughly May-September) and as mentioned MyWay+ works and other maintenance problems will also affect the fleet. I also wondered if some of the 26 Scania's would go to Tuggeranong short-term to cover for L94UBs, but probably too much of a hassle just to be there for a few months.

Anyway, 933 has been updated as retired.

Barry Drive

There are two new Yutongs fitted only with the new ticketing system.

As has been announced, these will be used in regular service, and there will be 4 in total.

So that's potentially 4 more Renaults to be withdrawn shortly.

L94UBbusfan

This should mean (since the new Yutongs are based at Tuggeranong) that the final 3 Tuggeranong Renaults will be withdrawn once they enter service. There is an extremely slim chance they will be kept due to L94 withdrawals, but I very highly doubt. All depends on fleet availability.

triumph

Quote from: Barry Drive on May 09, 2024, 01:47:19 PMThere are two new Yutongs fitted only with the new ticketing system.

As has been announced, these will be used in regular service, and there will be 4 in total.

So that's potentially 4 more Renaults to be withdrawn shortly.

It is becoming more and more confusing and contradictory. Charging capability was said not to be enough for the new Yutongs. Does that imply they will be using Belconnen facilities and consequently the Elements are a long way from service? If the withdrawal of gas buses can be covered, how come the Renaults were not gone sooner? At present it seems to strictly be each time a new bus is about in service. Gas buses had new floors not long before gas cylinder expiry (are any still away? Has 693 been returned from major repair? If there were updates, I have missed them. (Many contradictions and/or incorrect assumptions - for example is it actually factual that the gas buses are permanently withdrawn?
Out of all this, it does appear that either forward planning is severely disrupted by external factors or some last minute panics might be happening (or both?).

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on May 10, 2024, 12:22:36 AMDoes that imply they will be using Belconnen facilities and consequently the Elements are a long way from service?
It certainly looks that way.

My guess is they brought forward some Yutongs due to the continued **whatever** fault with the Elements.


L94UBbusfan

TC should send the new Scania's, which would have otherwise been replacing the Irisbuses, to Tuggeranong to cover for L94s being retired once the Belconnen Renaults are retired. Then once there are enough Yutongs in the fleet, TC can send the Scania's back to Belconnen to replace the Irisbuses.

Depends on just how many L94s are retired before mass Yutong deliveries arrive.

triumph

Quote from: L94UBbusfan on May 10, 2024, 04:44:53 PM......
Depends on just how many L94s are retired before mass Yutong deliveries arrive.

Charging facilities? If I have understood it properly, this is dependent on new Woden Depot completion.

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: triumph on May 10, 2024, 07:00:49 PMCharging facilities?

That too

We probably will need another topic for L94 retirements at some point too, they seem to be filling up the Renault retirement topic (I probably started that, sorry)

However 697 is according to fleetwiki "not currently in service". Anyone know what's going on with this bus?

Geez at this rate, Tuggeranong is gonna run out of buses lol. I wonder how far away the Scania's are, because we need them ASAP

L94UBbusfan

I have some speculation about the Renaults retirements, don't take it too seriously, it is all guessing. We will see how right or wrong I am in the end...

We currently have 10 Renaults remaining in service, 7 at Belconnen and 3 at Tuggeranong. (931 is retired according to fleetwiki and I haven't seen it in ages). 733 and 812 are registered and are due to enter service this month, and 813 has already entered service. This should lead to 3 Renault retirements, however 813 may have caused 953 to be retired. This means we would be down to 8 by the end of the month

Now as mentioned by Chris Steel in Question Time, the Elements have had "technical acceptance" done to them, and are expected to enter service sometime in June (as all but 751 are registered). There are 4 of them, so that should mean 4 Renaults are retired. This takes us down to 4 Renaults remaining by the end of June (2 at each depot)

Now by then I would guess 814 and 815, which are presumed to be MyWay+ buses, as well as at least 1 more Scania, if not more, are delivered. These buses would likely enter service in July, meaning that there would be enough buses to retire all the Renaults by the end of the school term.

Now, this all may depend on how many L94 CNG's have to be retired before July, which is when most of them will hit the 20 year mark, which may slow down the Renault retirement a little bit, but if we get more buses than what we project, then there is a high chance the Renaults last day in service will be July 5th, the last day of Term 2.  :'(

triumph

Quote from: L94UBbusfan on May 22, 2024, 08:33:11 PMI have some speculation about the Renaults retirements, don't take it too seriously, it is all guessing. We will see how right or wrong I am in the end...
....

Now, this all may depend on how many L94 CNG's have to be retired before July, which is when most of them will hit the 20 year mark, which may slow down the Renault retirement a little bit, but if we get more buses than what we project, then there is a high chance the Renaults last day in service will be July 5th, the last day of Term 2. (


Yes, apart from possible gas bus retirement impacts, this seems quite likely. The present on-line timetable for public services shows using non-disability compliant (ie Renaults) is becoming rather sparse, and the reality is a lot worse.
On Monday I planned to time a departure from Majura Park (route 54) for the mid-afternoon Renault which duly showed  up. The plan was then to continue to Gungahlin on the Light Rail and use the sole R8 Renault service to Belconnen, and failing that, the route 23 Renault service a few minutes later. Neither showed up. So back to Dickson on the Light Rail for route 30 Renaults. The first was a no show. The second and last was a Renault. So out of 5 timetabled services only 2 were actually Renaults.
Today the plan was to use the after lunch route 64 Woden to Coolemam Court and the route 65 back to Woden Both were Renault services but only 64 had a Renault. The subsequent route 77 from Woden was also a no show. Thence a number of possibilities from the City. Route 32 was a no show, also 53 to Dickson. Route 53 Renault to the Museum showed up and later the same bus operated the late afternoon route 51. I think that a route 55 leaving while I was at the Museum was also a Renault. Again, out of 8 services timetabled for Renaults only 50% actually were Renaults (involving 3 different units).
The message is that opportunities to ride are already difficult and about to get even more so, especially if different Renault buses are sought on the same day. If you want multiple rides, do it now, don't procrastinate.   
 

L94UBbusfan

They are disappearing off routes I know they operate on quick, I hope they don't go off the 25 service they usually operate, that's my only chance I get to ride on one. I hope to at least ride on 1 more Renault before they all go.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Same, I've been so busy with uni these last few weeks I've had to miss quite a few - including 963 the other day pulling into city west, nice to see a Dinosaur bus again.
I haven't looked recently, but I'd still imagine that 72 in the morning connecting with a 71 Iris is still doable, but getting up first thing these last few mornings has been tough with the cold.

L94UBbusfan

To the best of my knowledge the 72 in the morning is still a Renault, but who knows for how much longer. I'd definitely try catch that route ASAP.

743

Conversely, on a few occasions over the past month, I've noticed Renaults in unexpected places - including Tuggeranong fleet on Routes R5 and 78 well in to the evening.

triumph

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 23, 2024, 01:34:14 PMSame, I've been so busy with uni these last few weeks I've had to miss quite a few - including 963 the other day pulling into city west, nice to see a Dinosaur bus again.
I haven't looked recently, but I'd still imagine that 72 in the morning connecting with a 71 Iris is still doable, but getting up first thing these last few mornings has been tough with the cold.

As of today, according to the on-line TT, the early morning 72 from Woden is still a non-disability service.

A perusal of the on-line TT shows that South of the Lake there are now only 16 single runs across 10 routes left as non-disability services. On any given day this is probably less as other buses substitute for Renaults.

Today I happened to be in Woden again. So checked on the after lunch routes 64 and 65. Renault 982 again operated route 64. But route 65, operated yesterday by electric Yutong 810, was operated today by Renault 980.


triumph

Quote from: triumph on May 23, 2024, 09:20:07 PM....
A perusal of the on-line TT shows that South of the Lake there are now only 16 single runs across 10 routes left as non-disability services. On any given day this is probably less as other buses substitute for Renaults.
.....

Adding North of the Lake and incl Rte 47 as predominantly N of the Molonglo, the numbers are:
63 single trips across 21 routes.

Notably route 46 has no less than 7 single trips, closely followed by routes 45 and 51 with 5 each.

I haven't attempted to graph the trips to see what the greatest number of simultaneous trips are and to compare that with available Renaults. But at an average of nearly 8 single trips per Renault still in service, it is reasonably clear that a good many of the trips are not operated by Renaults in any single day. 

It seems logical that the last runs will be North side with Belconnen Depot Renault(s). But which ones?

 

Barry Drive

Quote from: L94UBbusfan on May 22, 2024, 08:33:11 PM... then there is a high chance the Renaults last day in service will be July 5th, the last day of Term 2.  :'( 
Way too early to speculate, but a few things to note:

• in 2024 there have been 3 new Scania buses (at Belconnen Depot) for 5 Renault withdrawals - so there's no guarantee that the 4 Custom Denning Elements will result in 4 withdrawals, and it's even less likely that they will result in more than 4.

• the number of new Yutongs is also uncertain; while 3 are definite, the 4th was speculation.

• again, the 3-4 new Yutongs may not result in any further withdrawals at Tuggeranong for a variety of reasons, including the logistical difficulties of charging 15 or 16 electric buses when there are only 12 outlets that can be used concurrently.

L94UBbusfan

It may but a bit early for speculation, but not too early. The Elements would at least replace 4 Renaults, I doubt they would retire a lesser amount than new buses in service considering they are trying to get rid of them ASAP. They have been able to retire some L94s without any drama (so far) so what would an extra 2 or 3 Renaults being retired do?

The number of Yutong's delivered within the near future is almost certain to be 4, since there are 4 MyWay+ trial buses expected, all of which should be Yutongs. Charging is an issue, but I don't see why some buses could be charged while others are on duties, and then once the original buses run out of charge, the charged buses will then operate (unless it's super inconvenient). No matter what, we could still probably replace all Renaults with the Elements and Scania's due soon and whatever new Yutong's we currently have before Term 3 begins. Definitely before the end of the year. Time will tell

triumph

Quote from: L94UBbusfan on May 24, 2024, 06:50:14 PM.......
 Definitely before the end of the year. Time will tell

Well before the election at the very latest I reckon.

L94UBbusfan

Looking into routes operated by Renaults, I believe there is only 1 Renault service scheduled on a Rapid route left. This is an R8 service to Belconnen in the late afternoon

Quote from: 743 on May 23, 2024, 05:44:17 PMincluding Tuggeranong fleet on Routes R5

As seen here, Rapid services may be operated by Renaults, but not scheduled. The R8 is the only scheduled Rapid route with a Renault.

743

Renault sighted departing Calwell Shops on a 79 just now (yes - at 9:10pm).

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: 743 on May 28, 2024, 09:13:24 PMRenault sighted departing Calwell Shops on a 79 just now (yes - at 9:10pm).

I just saw a Renault on an 80 at 7pm. It isn't a Renault scheduled service. Keeping this on topic, I wonder which Renault will be the next to be retired? I think it should be 959, the last time I rode on it it sounded sick and had a problem just as I got off it, how lucky was I!

triumph

Quote from: 743 on May 28, 2024, 09:13:24 PMRenault sighted departing Calwell Shops on a 79 just now (yes - at 9:10pm).
Just chance, or an indication that gas bus withdrawals are having an impact? Or even that Yutongs being charged during operational hours need to be covered? Speculation - time will probably resolve

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on May 29, 2024, 08:33:06 PMJust chance, or an indication that gas bus withdrawals are having an impact? Or even that Yutongs being charged during operational hours need to be covered?
Firstly: this is getting close to setting off the "off-topic" alarm.

Secondly: the underlying cause would be the withdrawal of the Scania L94s without replacements. The immediate cause would be a backlog in the workshops (for any number of reasons - availability of parts, complexity of repairs ...). You can only survive the removal of spare buses from your fleet for so long before you find out why you actually needed that many.


Sylvan Loves Buses

#121
Oh I see, couple of numbers missing from the scania list already :o
What's happening with 979? Can't recall seeing it recently, has that fallen fate to the retirements yet or will the Tuggy's be the last to go with it included?

743

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 30, 2024, 10:54:20 AMWhat's happening with 979? Can't recall seeing it recently, has that fallen fate to the retirements yet or will the Tuggy's be the last to go with it included?
It is safe and sound - I've seen it in service on two days this week.  :D

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on May 30, 2024, 10:54:20 AMWhat's happening with 979? Can't recall seeing it recently, has that fallen fate to the retirements yet or will the Tuggy's be the last to go with it included?

Quote from: L94UBbusfan on May 29, 2024, 07:15:39 PMI just saw a Renault on an 80 at 7pm.

This service was operated by 979. It's definitely still in service, for now at least. And regarding whether the Tuggeranong Renaults will be the last to go, it's really anyone's guess, but I personally think a Belconnen Renault will be the last to go. Purely just because there are more of them.

L94UBbusfan

Despite 6 new buses entering service recently this is yet to result in a Renault being retired. Does this mean we are anticipating L94 retirements in July when some of them hit 20 years? It just seems odd that no Renaults have gone yet, not even 1 or 2.

Snorzac

I think if you track back through the last few retirements, there has been numerous with no direct replacement meaning the fleet count is down

Barry Drive

Quote from: L94UBbusfan on June 24, 2024, 03:46:58 PMDespite 6 new buses entering service recently this is yet to result in a Renault being retired. Does this mean we are anticipating L94 retirements in July when some of them hit 20 years? It just seems odd that no Renaults have gone yet, not even 1 or 2.
I've already addressed this above: there may be good reasons why no Renaults are withdrawn as yet.

However, the start of Term 3 may result in fewer Renaults and possibly even their complete withdrawal. Especially if Bus 734 arrives.

Just give it some time.

L94UBbusfan

#127
Quote from: L94UBbusfan on June 24, 2024, 03:46:58 PMDespite 6 new buses entering service recently this is yet to result in a Renault being retired. Does this mean we are anticipating L94 retirements in July when some of them hit 20 years? It just seems odd that no Renaults have gone yet, not even 1 or 2.

Looks like I was a day early with this post, as 3 Renaults have now been updated on fleetwiki as retired. A route 30 that used to be operated by a Renault is now being operated by an Irisbus, so clearly there aren't enough Renaults to operate on these non-wheelchair accessible routes. The 25 route I get is still operating with a Renault, so if it is still the same tomorrow or Friday I will try my hardest to ride on a Renault one final time. Only 4 Renaults left at Belco  :o

Barry Drive

#128
Quote from: Barry Drive on June 25, 2024, 10:38:02 AMHowever, the start of Term 3 may result in fewer Renaults and possibly even their complete withdrawal.
The new GTFS covering Term 3 was released this week. I had a look to see if it showed a reduction in Renault "trips". It did not.

So that tells us nothing.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Barry Drive on June 25, 2024, 10:38:02 AMHowever, the start of Term 3 may result in fewer Renaults and possibly even their complete withdrawal. Especially if Bus 734 arrives.
Fewer: yes. 958 and 959 appear to have been withdrawn.

734 has not arrived, and the Tuggeranong 3 are still in use.

So now there are 5.

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: Barry Drive on July 22, 2024, 10:51:44 AMFewer: yes. 958 and 959 appear to have been withdrawn.

734 has not arrived, and the Tuggeranong 3 are still in use.

So now there are 5.

And somehow my route still gets one. Another thing is that I haven't sighted 960 since school went back, only 963 has been out and about. 982 was on a 24 last night too, the Tuggeranong Renaults generally don't get further north than Woden so it was nice to see out and about.

Also how far are 816-818 from enetering service? Could result in all of Tuggeranong's Renaults going.

743

Quote from: L94UBbusfan on July 23, 2024, 05:57:00 PMAnother thing is that I haven't sighted 960 since school went back, only 963 has been out and about.
960 has been in service - I managed to photograph it on two different routes yesterday (Monday). I was unable to go hunting today.

AnotherBusDriver

734 is now at Belconnen depot, no bike rack yet. I guess that means another renault withdrawal is imminent.

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: AnotherBusDriver on July 25, 2024, 03:08:27 PM734 is now at Belconnen depot, no bike rack yet. I guess that means another renault withdrawal is imminent.

816, 817 and 818 have also just entered service today at Tuggeranong, which could spell the end of Tuggeranong's last 3 Renaults. When 731 entered service earlier this year, 2 Renaults (932 and 934) were withdrawn so it could potentially be the same for when 734 enters service. 819 is also now at Tuggeranong, so it shouldn't be too far off entering service either. I doubt any Renaults will be around in a few weeks time.

triumph

979 and 982 were still active today, Rtes 64 and 65 as usual and associated other routes. Also noted 963 active today. 980 and 960??.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I saw 979 on the usual 72 this morning on anytrip, other than that I saw 963 on my way to belconnen a couple hours ago.

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on July 26, 2024, 05:13:18 PMI said to the driver and is the absolute last time I'll probably ever see 960 again as he claims after today it's getting scrapped.

If what this driver said is true, I guess that's the end of 960. To me it seems a bit odd that 960 is going before the last 3 Tuggeranong Renaults, considering 816-818 are at Tuggeranong while 960 is/was at Belconnen, but alas. The saddest retirement for me will be 963  :'(  :'( . It's going to be bittersweet without the Renaults around, they have been in the fleet for as long as I can remember and were one of the first buses I rode, and were the first bus I ever rode in Canberra. It is truly the end of an era for buses in Canberra

triumph

#137
Quote from: triumph on July 26, 2024, 04:24:19 PM979 and 982 were still active today, Rtes 64 and 65 as usual and associated other routes. Also noted 963 active today. 980 and 960??.
960 reported today by Sylvan. This now leaves only 980 unaccounted for.

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: L94UBbusfan on July 26, 2024, 06:59:07 PMThe saddest retirement for me will be 963  :'(  :'( .

And now 960 and 963 are gone  :'(  . I was lucky enough to see it twice on Thursday (25th) just 1 day before it was withdrawn. Now Belconnen has no Renaults left, my chances of riding one again are pretty slim. Only 3 Renaults at Tuggeranong 979, 980 and 982, remain in service, and who knows for how much longer.

triumph

Worth noting that 963 was the last of the three specially painted "Take ACTION (to) conserve our fossil fuels" buses.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I'll be sure to wake very early on Monday to see what's on again. Given that the 81S that usually meets that 72 arrival didn't appear to have one when I checked anytrip (or the driver just didn't turn it on this time) maybe that's one that's gone too, we'll have to see tomorrow.
Not sure if I mentioned it here yet or not, but the 960 driver on Friday also mentioned to me that 963 will be auctioned, so that one is not lost forever.

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on July 28, 2024, 08:15:25 AMNot sure if I mentioned it here yet or not, but the 960 driver on Friday also mentioned to me that 963 will be auctioned, so that one is not lost forever.

You didn't mention that, but that's awesome to hear that 963 will find another home. Last time I rode 963 it was in absolutely immaculate condition and it does not deserve to be scrapped. Especially since it was one of the "dinosaur" buses, and the last one in service at Belconnen Depot.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I've been told 967 isn't feeling well, and I can't recall if 971 got scrapped or not. Wouldn't mind seeing/riding either of them again.

Sylvan Loves Buses

#143
979 and 980 are out, yippee!
I'd imagine that'll mean at least these two will be used this afternoon too, good luck to those wishing to ride them then. As for me, I just gotta wait for an Irisbus signal to pop up on the right route too or I'm going back to sleep, cuz **** it's cold again.

triumph

As Sylvan says, two were out today. They turned up as usual on the after lunch Woden-Weston Creek return services. 979 on rte 75 and 980 on rte 64.

When I looked just before the school holidays, the on-line TT showed 14 non-disability services across rtes 63 to 81 weekdays, school term.
All 14 were operated today by 979 and 980. Assume that 982 was not in use on any other services.

It follows only two more buses are needed to cover all these services. Given 3 more Yutongs have just entered service with another pending, then logically it could be expected that retirement is likely in matter of a day or so - perhaps the rest of this week. BUT complicating factors are the speculated on, but basically not definitively known, impacts of gas bus withdrawals and charging congestion for the electric buses. 


 

L94UBbusfan

979 and 982 are out today for anyone wanting to ride them. I'd assume they will cover the regular routes.

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on July 28, 2024, 09:01:44 PMI can't recall if 971 got scrapped or not.

971 hasn't been scrapped to the best of my knowledge.

Busnerd

I saw 971 parked at the fence at Tuggeranong when I went past on the weekend so it's not yet been scrapped.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Oh right of course, I forgot there's a bunch up against the rear fence.

743

ABC Canberra have done a little feature on the Renaults, featuring Transport Canberra's Deputy Director-General, Ben McHugh: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/canberra-saturdaybreakfast/canberras-iconic-orange-and-blue-busses-retiring/104179494

May be worth a listen if you're interested.

Key takeaways are that the final three in service will be withdrawn by the end of August, but that a training fleet will remain for now, so we may still see some on the road after August.

triumph

Thank you, listened twice.
Implication is that the 4 Yutongs that recently entered service are not impacting the retirement of the 3 remaining Tuggeranong based Renaults. August deliveries of 3 expected new buses will trigger retirement, but Fleetwiki is yet to report any deliveries in August.

Noted Ben McHugh acknowledged there were people out there that know a lot more about the Renault and others fleet than he did. Compliment to ACTBUS might be assumed.  ;D

Barry Drive

Ben McHugh referred to 3 "new arrivals", without specifying which bus type.

Perhaps he could be meaning 734, plus another 2 Scanias. (Since 734 is not yet in service, it could be destined for Tuggeranong - we just have to wait to know for certain.)

In any case, I did wonder if they would be renewing any registrations for the Renaults. It looks like only the training buses will be renewed.

L94UBbusfan

#151
Indeed. I don't usually listen to that sort of stuff, but that was really interesting to listen to. I'd assume the new buses referred to by McHugh are a mix of Yutongs and Scania's.

And also, once all the Renaults are retired, will the Irisbuses or L94s go first?

Barry Drive

That WASN'T a Podcast - it was a recording a of radio program. You know, that TV without pictures that your great-grandparents listened to.

Anyway, onto what will be withdrawn next: In the 2024/25 budget, it mentioned that by June 2025, there will be 56 electric buses in service. Which means another 32 to arrive in 11 months.

If going off build date, another 32 buses would enable L94s up to 349 to be withdrawn as well as 7 Irisbuses. And the remaining 13 Scania diesels (expected whenever), would enable all Irisbuses to be withdrawn.


L94UBbusfan

Has anyone seen 979 recently? Only 980 and 982 have been operating the 2 Renault shifts for the last week. With only a week left in August too, it seems like retiring all Renaults by the end of August is becoming a bit optimistic. 820 and 821 shouldn't be far off, since only 2 Renaults are used each day I would presume these 2 new buses will enable the final 3 Renaults to be withdrawn.

Bus 400

Next week will be the test, all TC buses rego expires on the 1st September. 
So far bus rego hasn't been renewed for any bus.

Besides the NHVR app, the website to watch is https://rego.act.gov.au/regosoawicket/public/reg/FindRegistrationPage?10
Same could be for any potential CNG bus retirement too.

Barry Drive

It does look as though the plan is to not renew the registration for 979 980 & 982. But if this is actually the case, they may need to be withdrawn mid week to enable them to be driven to Belconnen Depot for decommissioning.

I do expect all active Scania L94s to be renewed - for one thing I don't think Tuggeranong Depot is able to lose any further active buses just yet.

Cutepattern1098

Quote from: Barry Drive on August 24, 2024, 01:23:36 PMIt does look as though the plan is to not renew the registration for 979 980 & 982. But if this is actually the case, they may need to be withdrawn mid week to enable them to be driven to Belconnen Depot for decommissioning.

I do expect all active Scania L94s to be renewed - for one thing I don't think Tuggeranong Depot is able to lose any further active buses just yet.
Is there a possibility the Renaults could remain as dedicated training buses?

triumph

Quote from: Cutepattern1098 on August 25, 2024, 11:57:12 AMIs there a possibility the Renaults could remain as dedicated training buses?

Looks like it.

982 and 980 registration renewed, but not979.
Training buses 930 and 962 renewed but not 931 and 976.

So 2 trainers out suggests 980 and 982 will be kept as trainers.

This implies that the driver quoted in another post, saying the end of this week, is correct.

Will 980 and 982 show up for service tomorrow (even possibly 979 in lieu) as they did today? 

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: triumph on August 29, 2024, 09:18:59 PMThis implies that the driver quoted in another post, saying the end of this week, is correct.

Will 980 and 982 show up for service tomorrow (even possibly 979 in lieu) as they did today? 

Probably not 979, as it hasn't operated since the 13th and has been updated as retirement, but I would expect 980 and 982 to be out tomorrow as per usual. The driver from the PT post did say "the rest of this week, that's it" so that probably means until Friday (tomorrow). So if what was said is indeed true then it looks like tomorrow could be the very last day of passenger Renault services. So if you are wanting to ride one, regardless of whether what the driver said is true or not, do not hesitate, go out tomorrow and get on one.

triumph

Thought I had checked Fleetwiki earlier and must have missed 979 entry. Or was it only recently added?

Barry Drive

979 was updated on the assumption that it wouldn't be utilised again.

However, it might be used tomorrow - in which case the fleetwiki will be updated. We'll know in a few hours which Renaults are in use for the last time.

triumph

#161
980 is in use today but the other runs that might have had a Renault so far have 808. Haven't found 979/982 on Any Trip.

L94UBbusfan

980 has operated its final ever service on a 73 from Tuggeranong to Woden leaving Tuggeranong at 15:41 this afternoon. This now means all Renaults have been retired from the passenger fleet. While they will still operate as training buses for now, there are no more passenger route services. Truly the end of an era for public transport in Canberra. RIP Renault PR100.2s 1987-2024  :'(

Sylvan Loves Buses

Just got back from being in hospital all week, guess I missed my last chance :( Oh well at least I won't have to wake up at the crack of dawn to ride them ever again.

Bus967

#164
Dammit I missed my last chance and I had work today, if I didn't have work I would've ridden  it on every route from start to finish


On a related note, does anybody know if there are any events happening for CTM?
And I wish that it was kind of more of a big fanfare when these got retired the same way how Sydney does their trains

L94UBbusfan

Quote from: Bus967 on August 30, 2024, 08:42:49 PMAnd I wish that it was kind of more of a big fanfare when these got retired the same way how Sydney does their trains

I wish it was like this too! The Renaults have been such an icon in Canberra and they deserve a proper farewell. I also found on the Canberra Times a video of the last Renault arriving into Woden Interchange. I enjoyed watching it, and for those who missed the last service like me, it's nice to have a record of what the last service was like.

triumph

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on August 30, 2024, 08:31:13 PMJust got back from being in hospital all week, guess I missed my last chance :( Oh well at least I won't have to wake up at the crack of dawn to ride them ever again.
Commiserations and recovery best wishes.


Sylvan Loves Buses

I don't suppose crashing one into a concrete shelter is a good send off, 'the two canberra icons collide' spectacle so to speak ;D  ;D  ;D

triumph

In the second link provided by 743, an enthusiast Kyle indicated that the last 3 Renaults, when still in service, were the oldest city buses in Australia. Is this exhaustively confirmed? Seems very likely to me as all the buses now in service should be disability compliant, and thus relatively recent models. Our last 3 were a bit of a standout in this regard.

Barry Drive

There's no reason to think it's incorrect.

CDC Canberra have a handful of pre-2000 builds, but nothing as early as 1992. This is probably the same with other private companies around Australia.

Now we need to worry about getting those 22 year old Irisbuses replaced.

triumph

Agreed and, as I said, I think so too.
However I have seen over the decades that on any subject when someone claims a first, last, biggest, longest, and so on, that all too often that claim is challenged and invalidated. Hence my thought about exhaustive confirmation.
(Trivia - Around 2000, whilst holidaying in NZ we came across a school bus which was a bonneted Bedford and thus at least 50 years old. Not still a city/urban service bus, but thoughts of that do plant doubts....).