With the (presumed) imminent arrival of 26 new Scanias and the DDA deadline of 31 December fast approaching, this topic is to record the final movements of the remaining Renault PR100.2s
To recap, there are 39 in total: 927-963 at Belconnen (23), 969-982 at Tuggeranong (14) and 943-944 as trainers.
But will 927 be withdrawn first, or will they be removed based on mechanical grounds? And will they keep some as trainers, despite the remainder being withdrawn?
Umm. The 2023 on-line 1st Term timetable shows a number of services without the wheelchair symbol. So apparently the non-compliant deadline is going to be missed, with at least some of the Renaults soldiering on for a while?
With how delayed the arrival of the new/leased/electric buses are it's certinaly looking this way.
From what I've heard, there should be some Yutong electric buses arriving this month. So expect there will be some Renaults withdrawn by the start of Term 1.
I can only assume that TC have been given an exemption/extension for the 100% low floor deadline.
Quote from: Barry Drive on December 13, 2022, 08:46:47 AMI can only assume that TC have been given an exemption/extension for the 100% low floor deadline.
In news which I'm sure will surprise no-one, the Renaults are out this morning. Here is 938 coming in to Dickson just before xx:00.
(https://i.ibb.co/k1WJpCS/20230103-065411-010-saved.jpg)
I saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!
I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.
Quote from: Bus It on January 03, 2023, 02:21:16 PMI saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!
I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.
***Correction it was 931***
Quote from: Bus It on January 03, 2023, 02:21:16 PMI saw 938 doing an R10 this morning! They live on for a little longer!
I guess they've found a work-around for the 2023 low floor requirement.
Actually, what are the realistic consequences for simply ignoring the requirement for a few weeks? Just maybe.....
Also, just been to Melbourne, there are plenty of older high floor trams about, so presumably exemptions/extensions are available.
According to (https://piperalderman.com.au/insight/bus-disability-access-requirements-due-31-december-2022-are-you-ready/), it looks like 5 year extensions can be & has been granted.
It's not just buses that have to be accessible, but also bus stops & public transport stations. This work is still continuing in Canberra.
Quote from: Bus 400 on January 04, 2023, 06:15:18 PMIt's not just buses that have to be accessible, but also bus stops & public transport stations. This work is still continuing in Canberra.
I thought they had longer to do the bus stops, so I looked it up. And you're right - bus stops, infrastructure is also meant to be 100% by 2022.
So there's definitely been an extension granted, just a question of how long is it?
Quote from: triumph on January 03, 2023, 11:25:02 PMAlso, just been to Melbourne, there are plenty of older high floor trams about,
For trams and trains the 100% deadline is 31 December 2032. But there's already doubt that can be reached, given that Victoria has only ordered 100 G class trams (so far).
Quote from: Barry Drive on January 05, 2023, 01:52:33 PMSo there's definitely been an extension granted, just a question of how long is it?
Forever please lol.
Also what does an accessible bus stop look like?
Main points of a DDA compliant bus stop are:
1. Tactile markings pointing towards the kerb
2. Step free access to & from the kerb. Which is why boarding points or shelters will sometimes be moved. But why all new/modified stops have a flat surface.
Depending on the bus stop location, dictates the amount of work required.
But has also been hinted as to why so many stops were cut in the last major network review.
Quote from: Bus 400 on January 05, 2023, 08:33:00 PMMain points of a DDA compliant bus stop are:
1. Tactile markings pointing towards the kerb
2. Step free access to & from the kerb. Which is why boarding points or shelters will sometimes be moved. But why all new/modified stops have a flat surface.
Depending on the bus stop location, dictates the amount of work required.
But has also been hinted as to why so many stops were cut in the last major network review.
A very perverse outcome indeed. If not useable by people with a disability, then no one can. And the alternative is just as far away and inconvenient for the disabled customer anyway.
I noticed the same in Queensland - several country towns between Toowoomba and Charleville had lost Westlander train service due to non-compliant stations. Also, near where I live there was a stop with no path linking to the adjacent pedestrian underpass path - a compliant path would need an expensive retaining wall, I was told, so would not be provided - I won that safety issue, there is a compliant (I think) path now and no retaining wall.
This issue of disability access is drifting away from Renaults a Go Go, and cuts across infrastructure, vehicle, and service categories, and is likely to be on-going. Perhaps there is a need for a new category to be considered by our administrators?
There was some media commentary (https://the-riotact.com/broken-promise-government-accused-of-breaching-disability-standards-with-old-buses/626979) this week regarding the use of the Renaults in to 2023. I observed what seemed to be more of the Irisbus fleet following this, and not a single Renault some days (although, unlike Michelle Yeoh, I'm not everywhere all at once). It will be interesting to see what happens from the return of school term.
The only Renault shifts during the holiday timetable (aka the slightly altered 2020 Christmas Timetable) are a couple Gungahlin, City and Belconnen routes first thing in the morning, then pretty much nothing else for the rest of the day except one that comes to Woden for a couple 66s and 59s - they're all Belconnen shifts too I seem to recal.
It certainly will be interesting to see what happens at the start of the term, I'll be monitoring anytrip for most of the first week. It'll either be very disappointing or super wierd.
Quote from: 743 on January 14, 2023, 01:03:34 PMThere was some media commentary this week regarding the use of the Renaults in to 2023.
And yet no one seemed to care that some/many bus stops are not DDA compliant.
It's not quite as bad as Melbourne, where they run low floor trams but have non-accessible stops.
But IMO, the "outrage" about having non-accessible buses still in service is more about political point scoring than a genuine concern about MIPs.*
And yes, they do appear to be able to operate Renault-free in school holidays, but I doubt it will be possible once the school term starts.
[* MIP = Mobility Impaired Person ]
Couldn't agree more with you, Barry.
Quote from: Barry Drive on January 14, 2023, 04:22:38 PM....
It's not quite as bad as Melbourne, where they run low floor trams but have non-accessible stops.
''''
Had a look at the numbers, and low floor trams are in the minority.There are 200 low floor trams in the service fleet, BUT the number of high floor trams (excluding the City Circle service heritage fleet) in the service fleet are between 326 (Yarra trams) and 306 (vicsig). Taking the vicsig number, low floor trams are just fractionally under 40% of the fleet. They have a long way to go.
There are a number of accessible stops, with more being developed. There is, however, a vast number of stops (eg about 46 on the Essendon route alone, and multiply by 2 for the bidirectional aspect), so it seems to me unlikely and impractical to develop them all. What will result? Wholesale stop closures, the perverse outcome? Or will on board facilities be developed to provide street surface level access? Or will the let out clause about impracticality apply?
The Canberra situation leads to speculation about the implications for the local habits of regularly re-arranging routes, diversions at the drop of a construction hat, new routes, trial routes, and so on. Continuing compliance looks as if it might get to be interesting.
As for the Renaults, with gradual relegation to standby status (ref TC media comment) prior to withdrawal, it may well be nigh on impossible to be aware of which one will be last to supply a regular public run and when that happened, unless TC can definitively report it.
ABC 7:30 did a piece on DDA legislation.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-16/australia-misses-20-year-public-transport-accessibility-target/101858532
73% Melbourne tram stops aren't DDA compliant. However railed transport have til 2032 to be DDA compliant.
Searching does show this, but there's talk of amending the legislation in 2023, due to costs. They've only had 20 years to complete this project, but ok.....
The driver relieving for the afternoon shift said to me they've turned something off in all the Renault's and that they won't be using them again until the new network, hence why he had an Iris yesterday. I haven't been watching anytrip lately to know for myself and some drivers are less believable than others. To those who know better, what is really happening?
https://www.transport.act.gov.au/news/news-and-events-items/january-2023/travel-the-electric-way-on-canberras-first-zero-emissions-bus
QuoteIn the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.
Another acknowledgement that we'll continue to see the Renaults...for now.
The media thing was yesterday? god damnit, I was out yesterday too...
Quote from: 743 on January 26, 2023, 08:40:33 AMQuoteIn the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.
That's interesting. The minister's media release ( https://www.actbus.net/travel-the-electric-way-on-canberras-first-zero-emissions-bus/ ) said this:
Quote... unfortunately the old orange Renault diesel buses will continue to be used on the bus network for a short period to maintain services for the community until the replacement buses arrive.
No mention of "minimising use".
Also, "a short period" will probably be six months (if not longer). There is still no indication of when we'll see the first leased Scania, nor how long it will take to put all 26 into service.
But the PR100.2s will definitely be in service on Monday when school resumes. How many will be in use is the only unknown.
Quote from: Barry Drive on January 26, 2023, 01:03:32 PMBut the PR100.2s will definitely be in service on Monday when school resumes. How many will be in use is the only unknown.
I've already identified this many already - blurred out the times for privacy although it's probably not hard to figure out which ones they are. I'll be monitoring the network for the rest of the week to see if these change. Once I have the full day list I'll be able to create a route plan for those interested in riding as many in 1 day as possible.
Sorry - I know this is public information, but I would prefer that bus numbers not be linked to each trip.
You may list the trips, and list which buses are being used but don't link them.
For example:
The following buses were noticed in use today:
928 929 930 935 938 952 958 963 971 981 & 982
And they operated the following trips:
Please also be aware, the runs operated may vary depending on the availability of low floor buses, and new buses entering service - some days more and other days fewer.
Oh yeh my bad, that image indicated the shifts that each bus possessed.
I'm honestly surprised how many there've been. I missed out on a bunch of routes this morning cuz I woke up late and for some reason anytrip won't detect route 46, but I have identified 115+ routes that operated Renault's so far today. Obviously a bunch of these are probably not suppose to have Renualt's on them, I'll be keeping an eye on that over the next couple of weeks.
Third parties like 'Anytrip' list bus fleet number against each trip. Further, is not the display on the bus of the driver's licence/authority mandated for public information? Not to mention traditional observational methods. Not much real privacy.
Coming from a country town where the name, address, favorite pub/club, team supported, etc and which services a driver operated was common knowledge, I don't understand why the issue of linking buses and specific services is so sensitive here.
The downside of the present rule and thus lack of pattern information, is that if a bus of interest is noted, eg 800, catching up with it later on is a rather lucky guess.
However, as previously pointed out, the Forum administration is an autocracy, not a democracy. So non-linking is the rule, and so be it.
Ye, lotta rule contradictions here, but so be it...
Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on January 30, 2023, 07:33:08 PMI have identified 115+ routes that operated Renault's so far today
Woke up early specially to catch the extra Renault services and any others that weren't tracked yesterday - 46's still won't register. List is over 120 now.
Quote from: triumph on January 30, 2023, 11:39:40 PMI don't understand why the issue of linking buses and specific services is so sensitive here.
It a policy we implemented with consideration of the people behind the wheel of the bus.
Since this topic was set up with the intention of reporting on Renault withdrawals: 974 & 975 are believed to be in the process of being withdrawn.
Quote from: Buzz Killington on January 31, 2023, 10:13:59 PMIt a policy we implemented with consideration of the people behind the wheel of the bus.
When the relevant information can now be derived so much more readily, I doubt that that 'consideration' now has any practical relevance; BUT, on reflection, there is a different consideration (which I will not specify here, and is not directly relevant to drivers) which would, I feel, fully justify the present policy remaining in place.
Renault 927, currently the oldest ACTION service bus in use, was withdrawn at the end of June 2021. 2 months later it was re-activated as a reportedly temporary replacement for an unexpected major failure of an Iris. Recently 3 much newer Renaults 974, 975 and 956 were withdrawn, yet temporary 927 soldiers on = seen today performing a school service.
How TC selects and justifies retirements seems to have no obvious logic. Other one from an old tranche out for one new in.
There's only about 18 months difference between 927 and 982 - basically meaningless in the context of 30 year old buses.
My understanding (and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) is that the Renaults being selected for withdrawal are generally based on mechanical issues or accident damage that isn't worth repairing.
Agreed but 927 on that basis was the worst some 19months ago. Maybe it was fixed and thus now quite good comparatively.
Passed 961 the other day, its park brake alarm was having a tantrum and given the service truck being there I'd say it was there a while. Dunno about 927, but there's a couple others in the fleet I'm expecting to go sooner than others.
Seems odd thought that 974 and 975 got it first, if any of the 70's I would say 972 is a problem bus - but that's only based on what I've heard as a passenger on these buses.
Quote from: triumph on February 23, 2023, 08:13:20 PMHow TC selects and justifies retirements seems to have no obvious logic.
While we know when particular buses were built, we have no insight into their maintenance records. It is possible that 956/974/975 had covered more kilometres than other buses, or that they had some mechanical problems (like a troublesome gearbox).
I wouldn't even be surprised if servicing (seperate to mechanical faults) is playing a part at this point. Let's say they're due for a fairly major service (perhaps oil, tyres, brakes, comprehensive inspection etc) which may cost around a few thousand every set number of KMs. If 974, 975 & 956 were all due at a certain point, it may have been worthwhile just decommissioning them rather than paying money on servicing. By comparison, there may be much older busses (eg 932) which may have more KMs left until its due.
Quote from: Bus It on February 24, 2023, 08:14:43 PMI wouldn't even be surprised if servicing (seperate to mechanical faults) is playing a part at this point. Let's say they're due for a fairly major service (perhaps oil, tyres, brakes, comprehensive inspection etc) which may cost around a few thousand every set number of KMs. If 974, 975 & 956 were all due at a certain point, it may have been worthwhile just decommissioning them rather than paying money on servicing. By comparison, there may be much older busses (eg 932) which may have more KMs left until its due.
974 was withdrawn due to it having another major mechanical failure and is now being used as parts at Belconnen and 975 and 956 I'm not sure about. But 956 is now the new parts bus at Tuggeranong and 975 is next to 974 at Belco Depot which is unknown why its there but is currently parked there.
All sound points. One other aspect, which in the scheme of things is probably not particularly significant, is that it is my perception that retirements usually seem to be from the depot that has just received a new bus.
Quote from: Bus 524 on February 24, 2023, 10:45:48 PM974 was withdrawn due to it having another major mechanical failure and is now being used as parts at Belconnen and 975 and 956 I'm not sure about. But 956 is now the new parts bus at Tuggeranong and 975 is next to 974 at Belco Depot which is unknown why its there but is currently parked there.
I used to get that bus everyday up until early this year. It's such a shame as it always seemed like a good one and made no unusual sounds or anything. I was really hoping it was going to be sold and given a second life somewhere... Sigh...
For anyone who might be interested.
Around 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.
I mean I have a spreadsheet with 130+ Renault routes for the whole of every day on it. It won't have all of them as I've noticed the occasional extra one here and there, but for those interested I can share that. (in private message of course)
Quote from: triumph on March 02, 2023, 03:43:44 PMAround 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.
Again today but like the day quoted, though 3 at Platform simultaneously, unfortunately not all nose to tail being separated by another bus. Have seen all three one behind the other on another occasion a while back.
So one is always leaving 10-15 minutes late, good to know for if my day plan ever changes.
Whilst I said departing, they appeared to have lots of school kids around but maybe one was finishing a run, still departing though but only to Cohen St Interchange if that is the case - will need to look more carefully. My main point was 3 at once.
Well according to my list, around 3:50pm Renault's are on: 40, 41 and 42 (all departures). The only arrivals into Belconnen is a 31, but to see it at the same time as those 3 it'd have to be very late - it probably converts onto one of those anyway.
Yesterday the rte 31 arrived on time.
I'd always wondered why they decided to withdraw the old Renault MK2 artics (983-989) 10 years before their older standard sized counterparts. Seems like they would have been ideal for school services particularly in the morning allowing some of the newer artics for rapids. Hmmm, I'm sure they had their reasons.
Either way, it would have been nice to have an extra 10 years of Renault artics.
Renault 930 seen this morning passing through City on an R3 service to Spence.
Wonder why there is such a shortage of other buses that Renaults are appearing on R services which are supposed to be 100% accessible? (At any time, Renaults were exceedingly rare on R3 services.)
Also 927 was seen today so the oldest, briefly retired, bus continues to be active.
They're more reliable than buses half their age lol
Quote from: triumph on March 15, 2023, 07:31:34 PMWonder why there is such a shortage of other buses that Renaults are appearing on R services which are supposed to be 100% accessible?
This might be the reason:
Quote from: 743 on January 26, 2023, 08:40:33 AMIn the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.
What
might have happened is that in order to minimise Renault use, all available low floor buses were put into service: only for a bus to breakdown, or not start. With all low floors in use, the only available replacement would be a Renault.
All services are meant to be 100% accessible, not just rapids. People will just have to choose to wait for the next service as they have done for 30 years or just wait 3 months until all the high floors are gone.
Quote from: Barry Drive on March 18, 2023, 07:19:38 PMThis might be the reason:
What might have happened is that in order to minimise Renault use, all available low floor buses were put into service: only for a bus to breakdown, or not start. With all low floors in use, the only available replacement would be a Renault.
There is actually a case for restricting replacement Renaults to the frequent R services as the wait for a low floor is minimised, but this may not be practical as many shifts seem to be a mix of R and Local trips.
But referring to Barry Drive's post. I had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays? Short of a political or TC announcement providing some clarification, we are unlikely to know.
The present circumstances still imply that determining the last public and school services operated by Renaults may be a challenge.
Whatever, for those keen on Renaults not everything is an ill-wind.
Quote from: triumph on March 20, 2023, 10:45:22 PMThere is actually a case for restricting replacement Renaults to the frequent R services as the wait for a low floor is minimised, but this may not be practical as many shifts seem to be a mix of R and Local trips.
But referring to Barry Drive's post. I had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays? Short of a political or TC announcement providing some clarification, we are unlikely to know.
The present circumstances still imply that determining the last public and school services operated by Renaults may be a challenge.
Whatever, for those keen on Renaults not everything is an ill-wind.
Given that I've seen far more Irisbuses around even during shoulder periods, this could be contributing to more maintenance issues/breakdowns than before.
Quote from: triumph on March 20, 2023, 10:45:22 PMI had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays?
I think: neither. There's no evidence of any surge in breakdowns, nor of any understaffing or backlog in workshops.
A single Renault on an R3 is simply that: a single occurrence. My explanation was that it was due to bad timing: a breakdown (or vehicle unavailability) that occurred at a time when there were no spare low floor buses - due to a policy to limit the use of PR100.2s wherever possible (which may also have been exacerbated by Irisbus unavailability as posited by
Bus It.)
** Also it's only a theory **
Meanwhile (getting back to topic): Tuggeranong has only 7 Renaults left in service. They may not last past the end of School Term 1.
Quote from: triumph on March 02, 2023, 03:43:44 PMAround 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.
The opportunity still exists, but luck is involved in having all 3 at the platform simultaneously, and even more so nose to tail. Today each of the 3 services (all conformed outbound) arrived and departed separately (one was 927, still active).
The opportunity will probably continue at least until 723, etc. enter service, which may be only a matter of a few working days now, from the Belconnen Depot.
(It only seems possible at present to check by observation as Any Trip, when I look, does not show live detail for route 46, which with 40 and 41 are the routes involved.)
I'm just glad my 71/72s are still getting them. I suppose given they're the first active Renault shifts for both morning and afternoons the drivers are getting first picks, but with only 6 or something Tuggy Renault's left in service and Anytrip not always picking them up, it's getting tricky.
I finally got around to trying out my plan again last week, sadly only running the morning section of it as I was too tired by midday, still managed to get 5 Belco Renault runs in a row without fail. Will have to attempt the second half at some point before it's too late - still haven't ridden a couple of the 950s one last time (rip 956). Almost got 944 on that day too lol, why are they still training drivers on them? Seems such a waste at this point.
Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on March 31, 2023, 05:58:03 AMAlmost got 944 on that day too lol, why are they still training drivers on them? Seems such a waste at this point.
The driver training may not be Renault-specific, rather it might be general heavy vehicle familiarisation (lane placement, turning, weight etc), route familiarisation and so on. Given there are two vehicles already specifically allocated as trainers, it means they can be used if and when required (including peak hour) without taking away from the 'active' fleet.
It does raise the question though of the future of the training fleet. Would it be worth holding on to two vehicles which would no longer be standard within the fleet? Despite them being trainers, maintenance and spare parts would still be required. Time will tell, I guess.
Quote from: 743 on March 31, 2023, 08:02:18 AMIt does raise the question though of the future of the training fleet.
I did pose that question at the start of this topic.
The minister has stated that each new bus will be a "one for one" replacement for a Renault PR100.2 - and so far this is exactly what has occurred:
974 - 800
975 - 808
956 - 722
973 - 809
978 - 811
977 - 807
981 - 810
969 - 806
970 - 802
972 - 801
But: they will be getting 38 new buses to replace 37 Renaults. So
in theory they may be able to afford to transfer two low floor buses to become permanent trainers (e.g 390 & 391). However, there's also the question of whether 693 is permanently withdrawn and needs to be replaced (or does Belconnen give up another bus to cover for it)?
Edit: OK, maybe not MANs - they aren't old enough to be relegated to be trainers. Irisbuses would be preferable for now.
Quote from: Barry Drive on October 24, 2022, 10:06:01 AMTo recap, there are 39 in total: 927-963 at Belconnen (23), 969-982 at Tuggeranong (14) and 943-944 as trainers.
Based on best available information (and subject to change), 3 PR100.2s remain in service at Tuggeranong (979 980 & 982), with 944 & 976 now being used as trainers.
Belconnen has withdrawn 929 956 & 961.
Having ridden 980 this morning, I can confirm a least one of those ;)
Nice while it lasts to have my normal 6-7am routes back.
The 3 Renaults coming through Platform 2 at Westfield Belconnen just before 4pm weekdays is still happening but mostly not together. Seen today passing separately.
With slow deliveries, the three weekday Renault departures from Platform 2 in the 10min up to 4pm are still happening, but my recent few observations have not found them at the platform together.
With the news (see 26 Scanias thread) that future deliveries are expected to be one per week, at one for one retirements, it seems the Renaults will now be soldiering on for another 4 to 5 months.
Yay
Expected that. You didn't disappoint.
(BTW Platform 2 at Westfield, Belconnen)
Well I'm practically never up around Belconnen cuz I'm a valley boy, but it's good to know the Belco ones are (mostly) still on the same shifts as they were a couple months ago.
With the resumption of full services after the school holidays, the opportunity to perhaps see 3 Renaults simultaneously on departing services from Platform 2 at Westfield, Belconnen around 3.55pm has disappeared. Only 3 services around this time are now shown in the on-line TT as being non-disability suitable. Rtes 42 around 3.35pm, 45 around 3.45pm, and 41 around 3.55pm. So now normally one at a time.
The ones around 8 in the morning are still going. Saw a bunch on Monday.
Quote from: Barry Drive on April 01, 2023, 01:40:42 PMso far this is exactly what has occurred:
974 - 800
975 - 808
956 - 722
973 - 809
978 - 811
977 - 807
981 - 810
969 - 806
970 - 802
972 - 801
To update the list of withdrawn buses:
976*
971 - 803
961 - 804
929 - 805
955 - 723
930* - 724
952 - 725
962* - 726
939 - 727
935 - 728
* transferred to training duties
Article in today's Riot Act on the new Custom Denning Element, attributes Minister Steel as advising that due to delays in the leasing of diesel buses, the Renaults will not be phased out until early 2024. That's a bit vague still - how early I wonder?
It's deliberately vague. To date, BusTech have failed to meet their commitments - so why should the minister make definite announcements when he has no direct control over them?
Update: if the promised 9 Scanias arrive this year, they should be enough to replace the remaining Belconnen Renaults. Assuming they can get them into service, Belconnen may not have any Renaults after December 2023 - although this is massively optimistic.
Quote from: Barry Drive on October 25, 2023, 11:19:45 PMUpdate: if the promised 9 Scanias arrive this year, they should be enough to replace the remaining Belconnen Renaults. Assuming they can get them into service, Belconnen may not have any Renaults after December 2023 - although this is massively optimistic.
Idle to speculate what has changed at the manufacturer? All sorts of possibilities including the completion of another contract allowing more production to be allocated to TC, a lot full of near finished buses (like at times Boeing and Airbus with new planes) awaiting specific parts from sub-suppliers with a 'container' due, supply of chassis at improved rate, specialist staff returning from leave, etc. and combinations of factors.
Fleetwiki says now 15 active Renaults. 748 has yet to result in a retirement. So 15 less 4 Elements, gives 11, the 9 due(??) gives 2 in service. If 693 returns before 2024 school starts, that leaves 1. Perhaps the return of the bus having its floor replaced might release this last Renault unless another floor replacement is pending, or more deliveries occur in January. So it very much depends on the 9 whether we even see any Renaults in service after the end of term 4 this year, or, less likely, after term 1 starts next year. Other unknowns (to me anyway) is whether any of the school runs are
not integrated with other public runs, or runs can be adjusted (some overtime perhaps) to achieve that; in which case the final Renault(s) might end up only doing school runs. The possible flexibility of workshop scheduling and stand-by could also cover the retirement of the last Renault(s).
Bottom line remains, wait and see; and for surety get any
wanted rides in ASAP, and at worst, before the end of this school term.
I did say
Belconnen (Depot). The minister/Transport Canberra are not brave enough to suggest all Renaults will be gone by December.
Even if all the buses are delivered as expected, they will still need to be fitted out and drivers trained between now and the end of January, since no Renaults are needed during School Holidays.
Quote from: triumph on October 28, 2023, 10:03:16 PM... a lot full of near finished buses (like at times Boeing and Airbus with new planes) awaiting specific parts from sub-suppliers with a 'container' due, supply of chassis at improved rate, specialist staff returning from leave, etc. and combinations of factors.
Based on the statement given by the minister: all of the chassis have been delivered (to either BusTech or Scania Adelaide). Other than that, any of the above reasons could be possible. Reading other forums, there was a similar delay to supply of buses to Adelaide, so it wasn't due to Adelaide buses being given priority in the production line.
Quote from: Barry Drive on February 06, 2024, 12:12:09 PMThe Yutong contract may start delivering buses mid-year, so IF they prioritise the withdrawal of the Renaults before the Scania gas buses, we might have the Renaults fully withdrawn in about August/September.
In Question Time on Wednesday, the minister did confirm that buses delivered under the Yutong contract will be used to withdraw Renaults (rather than Scania L94s, if there are still Renaults in service at the time).
Although there hasn't been a public delivery schedule, previous comments have suggested they will supply 30 buses a year. So my assumption is that in 2024 there will be a minimum of 15, since deliveries are expected to commence in July.
This will (or should) result in all Renaults being withdrawn by years end, one way or another.
Quote from: Barry Drive on February 08, 2024, 11:57:20 PMThis will (or should) result in all Renaults being withdrawn by years end
These words have been uttered by various people every year for the last 2 decades and yet here we stil are. What a joke all this has become hahaha.
Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on February 13, 2024, 11:10:02 AMThese words have been uttered by various people every year for the last 2 decades and yet here we stil are.
Last 2 years, at most. (Yes, I'm aware it was hyperbole.)
The thing is, despite what some critics say, the problem of there still being low floor buses in service has two underlying causes:
1. Back in the late 1990s, the government of the time reduced the bus fleet by retiring more buses than were delivered. And then once the last of the Darts were in service, kept withdrawing buses without replacements.
From 1998 until 2004 we did not add one single new bus in service. Had we bought even a small quantity of low floor Mercs or Scanias back then, we would have met the DDA rule by 2022.
2. When the Irisbuses entered service in 2004 (yes: it's now been 20 years), there were around 400* buses in the fleet. Starting with the Irisbuses, ACTION has introduced 443 new buses to the fleet since 2004. So part of the problem was that although they've purchased enough buses to renew the fleet in 20 years, they failed to buy sufficient buses to expand the fleet.
* exact number to be added later
I've dug out the numbers.
When the last PR100.3 was introduced (in Oct 1996), there were 391 buses in service.
After the last Dart was introduced (in Feb 1998), there were 372 buses in service.
The last of the Mercedes-Benz O.305s was withdrawn in Nov 1999, at which point there were 360 buses in service (of which 258 were PR100.2s).
When the Irisbus Agora Lines entered service in Feb 2004, the fleet count was 351 buses with 230 being PR100.2s.
So in 20 years, we've added over 100 buses to the fleet and gone from 32 low floor buses to 440 - but somehow it's a terrible thing that we fell short of fully retiring the PR100.2s by 15 buses? Maybe the better option was to not expand the fleet so much.
Another element to complete the picture was when the mandated date for removing non-disability compliant vehicles, etc. was introduced?
To be fair, it should be noted that plenty of other public transport systems are struggling in this space, For example many high floor trams in Melbourne, train station access in Sydney and Brisbane, etc..
The impact of Covid disruption and speed of demand recovery has proved to be much greater than, I think, was anticipated a couple of years ago. It has highlighted the interlocking nature of industry and society both locally and internationally, and the risky and fragile nature of some previously lauded (particularly by conservative elements) efficiency/economic practices - such as 'just in time' delivery in the manufacturing process, reliance on cheaper overseas resources, failure to train and employ school leavers sufficiently, etc..
An interesting question I haven't heard asked and rhetorically 'Why is there now a worker/skills shortage greater than pre-covid, when the then conservative Government provided the generous Job Keeper programme'?
The below is a quote from the Reforms for the Disability Standards
for Accessible Public Transport 2002
Decision Regulation Impact Statement
QuoteThe Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) recognises the central role of public transport in everyday life. The DDA
makes discrimination on the basis of disability unlawful in the provision of public transport services, as it does in other
key areas of public life, such as employment and education.
Trains & trams have til 2032. Only Perth is 100%, but AFAIK, someone took the WA Government/PTA/Transperth to court.
I can only assume low staff has to do with migration. Capitalism needs a set increase in population to function. For atleast 12 months Australia didn't accept new migrants. There's also been about 10-20 years of public & private sector not wanting to pay to train new employees in technical skills. Expecting the young to go into debt to learn skills, with no guarantee they'll get into the industry. Why pay $20,000 to learn to weld (total guess) when you can earn $30,000 a month on OF or other social media.
The pattern of one out for each new bus entering service seems to have been broken with the retirement of 934 and 345. Note that 345 was disability compliant, so 2 new buses need to enter service to just restore the Renault retirement pattern. Perhaps entry to service of some of the 4 CD Element 2s delivered last year is being anticipated.
345 when last out of the depot was seen blocking a lane on the Tuggeranong Parkway in peak hour so it might be safe to say that some sort of catastrophic mechanical failure forcing an early retirement is at play there rather than a planned retirement...
The impact on the Renault retirements though is just as valid.
Presumably with the gas cylinder life expiry imminent, major repair of 345 with the associated off road delay, made repair not feasible.
Quote from: triumph on March 23, 2024, 11:09:33 PMThe pattern of one out for each new bus entering service seems to have been broken with the retirement of 934 and 345. Note that 345 was disability compliant, so 2 new buses need to enter service to just restore the Renault retirement pattern. Perhaps entry to service of some of the 4 CD Element 2s delivered last year is being anticipated.
The pattern is not quite as broken as I thought. Though not listed in fleet changes yet, I have just noticed 812 is shown in the Fleet List as delivered on the 27th March. It can't now be far from entering service.
Sorry if this is off topic, but does anyone know why 345, 352 and 365 are withdrawn, and 326 and 342 out of service due to "mechanical reasons. Why were they the first to be withdrawn and not the remaining 3 Tuggeranong Renaults? As my name suggests, I want to get some more rides on the L94UBs before they all go out of service due to "mechanical reasons"
Long story short, the CNG Scanias entered service from June 2004 with CNG tanks installed just prior to delivery. These tanks are rated (strictly) to 20 years where they either have to be replaced or the vehicles would need to be converted back to diesel or scrapped. I personally thought TC would have gone down the diesel conversion path however who knows how much this, plus tank removal would cost for each vehicle.
It's now become quite apparent that they intend on scrapping them for now at least when mechanical repair is not economical for only a few months of residual life. Just like the Renaults, were seeing these vehicles being scrapped from some things which would almost be considered routine for them.
Looks like TC will lose either way. Costly to attend to tanks, or costly to sell 20 year old vehicles to buyers who will undoubtedly factor the same costs into the buying price. Selling, provided enough new replacement are arriving, seems to me to be the better option, as the buses are entering high maintenance age and the replacements will be much better for the environment.
Another issue is the impact on Renault fleet reduction. A further complication is that it has been publicly said that each new bus into service equals one Renault retired.
Ah yes, I had a feeling this was the reason, but was unsure considering the fleet retirement wasn't in fleet order. As you said it really is a lose lose for TC. The remaining Scania and new electric buses better arrive soon or else there will be a short term bus shortage. This would mean the Renaults may stay even longer (Which I personally wouldn't mind!)
I wonder how hard it would be to convert a gas to electric?
AFAIK, Port Stephens Coaches bought & converted a couple of ex-Brisbane CNG buses. I'm not aware of anyone else attempting this or how the buses are faring.
Quote from: Bus It on April 15, 2024, 05:55:52 PMLong story short, the CNG Scanias entered service from June 2004 with CNG tanks installed just prior to delivery. These tanks are rated (strictly) to 20 years where they either have to be replaced or the vehicles would need to be converted back to diesel or scrapped. I personally thought TC would have gone down the diesel conversion path however who knows how much this, plus tank removal would cost for each vehicle.
It's now become quite apparent that they intend on scrapping them for now at least when mechanical repair is not economical for only a few months of residual life. Just like the Renaults, were seeing these vehicles being scrapped from some things which would almost be considered routine for them.
Looking more closely, and ruminating a bit.
Fleetwiki says 320 and 321 were delivered in June 2004 and entered service on the 2nd and 3rd of July. Deliveries are not subsequently noted, and many in-service dates are given only to the year. However 322 to 326 all entered service on 3rd July, and 327 to 332 are just quoted as July '04. 333 to 342 have 2004 only as in-service. 343 is given as entering service in March '05.
Relying on this and the quoted information, it seems that 5 more buses will need retiring within a month and a bit, and further 5 within about 2 months. Then a further 9 before the end of the year.
With 10 buses to go within a couple of months, how is TC going to cope? Are they really expecting another 5 or more deliveries to add to the buses on hand? At the present rate, this seems unlikely, but who knows. The implication is that the Renaults will need to soldier on. If further early gas bus retirements from 2005 deliveries occur due to severe failures and deliveries do not improve (a sleeper might be the rate of Yutong deliveries, now the newly ordered have started arriving), it is even possible to envisage some retired Renaults stored being reactivated (recall 927). TC seem to be on a very thin edge.
To cap it all off, an election is due. A nervous period for TC and the Minister.
So much for the Renault farewell tour eh, we're gonna get the GAS bus farewell tour first at this rate xD
Probably haha 🤣
I can't see any significant deliveries of new Yutongs until September, at the earliest.
Tuggeranong Depot doesn't have the infrastructure to charge more than 12 buses and the new chargers seem to be many months away.
Additionally, I don't think they're likely to commission new buses with the old ticket system if they have to swap them out again straight away.
This wouldn't have been much of a problem if the Custom Dennings and BusTechs were actually in service by now, as was planned - we would have had enough buses to fully withdraw the Renaults and 7 CNG L94s.
Which raises the question - what is the minimum number of buses actually needed for a school term weekday to sustain the timetable. Then to add to this, there are buses not available for duty due to heavy repairs and servicing, and further a standby number to cover for accidents and breakdowns. Perhaps if push comes to shove, more servicing can be done off-peak/overnight/weekends. What we don't really know is how close things are to the point when some timetabled services have to be cancelled (unless some retired Renaults can be restored to service) . Clearly with the Renaults still retained in use there is not much fat in the fleet.
Barry Drive's comments highlight the interlocking shambles looming (and in an election year). New buses, though, could be rushed into service with no ticket devices and give free rides. Charging seems to becoming another intractable issue - is it possible to charge more, by utilising daytime when buses are free off peak, and is there any possibility of using chargers elsewhere?
So far the thoughts here have been about TC's own resources. Is it even likely, that short term hires/leases could be arranged from other operators? They are probably having supply issues too, and in the same boat. So probably not.
It looks like the 'interesting times' of that well known oriental curse.
There's a lot of factors at play here as highlighted, from observation it seems a lot of Belconnen shifts which come on the road around the 9-10am mark both school term and school holidays tend to be Irisbus or artics which may indicate a shortage of standard low floor buses at Belconnen.
Tuggeranong tends to be pretty sound with bus types appearing on the same shifts/runs however I imagine with the number of buses Tuggeranong are without and the potential more will need to be removed they may soon run into issues.
At the moment there's also many factors at play which will further limit fleet availability, as highlighted on ACT Bus social media if appears the early work for MyWay + is well underway, if you're travelling down Scollay st you can see a shipping container place in the sheds and in off peak times typically 2-3 buses will be parked there getting worked on, one would assume this is a contractor carrying out the work for NEC so there is a further limiting factor on bus availability.
I think for now they will be fine, further retirements may cause issues however, will be interesting to see what happens on the first really cold morning of the year when a lot of the buses end up at the workshops due to heaters not working as they should, this could make for a very turbulent day as far as service reliability goes with the current state of the fleet.
For the very short term, TC will be fine. It will be when 5-10 more CNG L94s are retired and before the Yutong's have some significant deliveries they will be having problems with fleet availability (roughly May-September) and as mentioned MyWay+ works and other maintenance problems will also affect the fleet. I also wondered if some of the 26 Scania's would go to Tuggeranong short-term to cover for L94UBs, but probably too much of a hassle just to be there for a few months.
Anyway, 933 has been updated as retired.