MyWay replacement

Started by Bus 400, January 16, 2021, 04:20:43 PM

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Bus 400

While there's a subscriber only article on The Canberra Times website (link on ACT BUS Facebook page). That MyWay upgrade talks have fallen through due costs.

Opposition Transport Minister Mark Parton has given bit of a burn towards Chris Steele. But also makes mention that the original upgrade was promised in the 2016 Election & money was allocated in the 2017 budget.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZS3wJHNy/

triumph

Quote from: Bus 400 on January 16, 2021, 04:20:43 PMWhile there's a subscriber only article on The Canberra Times website (link on ACT BUS Facebook page). That MyWay upgrade talks have fallen through due costs.

Opposition Transport Minister Mark Parton has given bit of a burn towards Chris Steele. But also makes mention that the original upgrade was promised in the 2016 Election & money was allocated in the 2017 budget.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZS3wJHNy/

It was in the print version too.

Whilst Mark has had a go, like most Opposition pot shots, he has omitted to say what the Opposition would do or recommend be done? Costs, if the tenders/prices given to the buyer are not value for money and/or wildly in excess of a properly developed estimate, why wouldn't the buyer reject them? Does the Opposition want the project (and, for that matter, any project) to proceed when the price is not value for money, just so a date can be met? 

Meanwhile, with a new system now over the horizon, Transport Canberra needs now to address the unreliability of the existing system and associated NXTBUS system, as it seems we will have them with us for several years more.

Bus 400

That's something you have to ask the Opposition. But if the Minister is saying in February 2020 that a flash new system is coming on. It should of been rolled out by October 2020. It should also be rolled out by the next election. 

But if someone is going to propose something in 2016, say it's going ahead in 2020 & then say it's off in 2021. Questions do have to be asked. A bit like how a tender was released in 2018 for an app to be developed for TC. That involved what TfNSW are trialing now where you can pay for transport within app. But also book On Demand services that were to replace the (Not So) Flexibus in Network '19. Nothing was said about this, except through the Tender website. The public are none the wiser. So the Minister doesn't look like a hopeless person. 

Now the question will have to be asked, will the new tender be calling for 2020 technology or 2022/23 technology? Surely payment technology should advance in coming years. It has been suggested by someone else to Mark Parton that someone should keep an eye on this.

Barry Drive

Transport Canberra have just released a "Pre-Tender Consultation" for the Next generation ticketing system (and real-time passenger information system). The tender for the system is expected to commence Mid 2021 with the view to have an operational system for 2023.

Characteristics of possible new system

Next generation ticketing is being delivered in many cities across the world and includes the use of easy to use, account-based technology that allows users to manage and pay for their travel from their mobile device or credit card. COVID-19 has provided Transport Canberra with a unique opportunity to accelerate a cashless ticketing system.  Given the forced implementation under the current pandemic environment we have revised the scope to remove the requirement for providers to accommodate cash transactions, allowing the Territory to move to 100% cashless public transport system as well as a future focussed cost effective state of the art ticketing solution.

The envisioned system will support Transport Canberra's multi modal transport network that includes bus and light rail. It is also planned to leverage MaaS (Mobility as a Service) opportunities to enhance connectivity and accessibility to a broad range of users included disadvantaged groups through platforms which enable integration with a range of other services, integrated and simpler journey planning, and more targeted service provision in the future.

The procurement project will include replacement of the current back office with an account based, open architecture system and real time communications that facilitates open loop payments such as mobile ticketing and the use of credit / debit cards. The vendor will be required to provide core operational ticketing services over the service term and to supply tokens in an appropriate format. In addition to ticketing, Transport Canberra is seeking to incorporate a real time passenger information system into any future ticketing system to enable commuters to plan and pay for their journey within the same platform. Transport Canberra foresee innovation in RTPI system technology that enables greater flexibility to manage its operational networks with data rich network performance reporting tools.

Transport Canberra provide a broad range of customer concessions and free travel. It is intended that the new solution will facilitate the concessionary needs of our vulnerable Canberran's [sic] whilst providing opportunities to improve the accessibility of public transport to those who most need it.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well, mum was hoping to be dead before something like this was gonna happen, guess that's not gonna happen. If she survives long enough for this to be implemented, what's she (and others in a similar position) suppose to do (no photo ID, absolute refusal to use anything other than cash)?

Bus 400

To me, it sounds a lot like the TfNSW Opal system with upgrades that are currently being trialled. Even going the way of TfL, who have some regions that won't even accept the Oyster card (use credit cards only).

Bus 400

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on April 24, 2021, 01:35:02 PMWell, mum was hoping to be dead before something like this was gonna happen, guess that's not gonna happen. If she survives long enough for this to be implemented, what's she (and others in a similar position) suppose to do (no photo ID, absolute refusal to use anything other than cash)?


Aren't all TC services cashless already? 

But you could actually submit that question to TC. They may scope this out. But do remember we are becoming more of a cashless society. COVID has just accelerated this.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Spose she could just board, flash her pension card and that'll be enough (for most drivers), but I'm sure this would be a concern for others of her generation as well (and possibly tourists if they ever exist again). I will contact TC and ask, that's a good idea. Mum doesn't go out more than once a month now anyway, but it's still a concern. Like I'm sort of in that boat too, if my MyWay card gets cancelled, I'm screwed - I have no phone, no cash/debit card and have no plans on getting either of them.
I'll see what TC thinks first, no rush yet, there's till 2 more years to see if life's still worth living.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on April 24, 2021, 01:35:02 PM... what's she (and others in a similar position) suppose to do (no photo ID, absolute refusal to use anything other than cash)?
Walk?

By now, and certainly by 2023, everyone with a bank account in Australia has access to a tap-and-go credit or debit card. Despite all the hype of 10 or 15 years ago stored value cards never took off as an alternative to cash: it was the bank-issued cards that won out.

Quote from: Barry Drive on April 24, 2021, 10:41:40 AMTransport Canberra provide a broad range of customer concessions and free travel. It is intended that the new solution will facilitate the concessionary needs of our vulnerable Canberran's [sic] whilst providing opportunities to improve the accessibility of public transport to those who most need it.
This paragraph suggests that some sort of smartcard will still be needed for all concessions and it wouldn't be that difficult to provide one for full fare customers either (perhaps with a $5 fee as occurs now).

I would also expect the plan would be for TVMs to continue to exist and for more of them to be installed at busy stops / interchanges to allow for cash tickets and top-ups.

Given that the on-bus equipment will accept bank cards, I would also like to see the option of card top ups and multiple ticket sales allowed on the bus as well as at TVMs.

There is now a Canberra Times article on this topic.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Barry Drive on April 25, 2021, 01:01:22 PMWalk?

She may have had both hips replaced, but she's not going to walk from home to Woden, Curtin, or further each time she has to go out, that'd be stupid.

Yes her card does have the thing on it that does 'tap-and-go', but she utterly refuses to use it - think she tried having it disabled/removed at one point.

ajw373

Quote from: Bus 400 on April 24, 2021, 01:43:51 PMTo me, it sounds a lot like the TfNSW Opal system with upgrades that are currently being trialled. Even going the way of TfL, who have some regions that won't even accept the Oyster card (use credit cards only).

Issue in London where some areas don't accept Oyster is due to the complex fare sharing systems they have in place rather than a basic ticketing system.

And though ACT Government basically wanted all the features of Opal. In some ways would make perfect sense to just join Opal. Even better would be a common car nation wide, bit like common e-tags for toll roads.

Barry Drive

Quote from: ajw373 on April 27, 2021, 06:06:06 PMAnd though ACT Government basically wanted all the features of Opal. In some ways would make perfect sense to just join Opal. Even better would be a common card nation wide, bit like common e-tags for toll roads.
No they don't. What they want is an account-based, open loop payment system. Opal is a closed loop (stored value) with an added on EMV contactless system. Which admittedly is better than what we have now, but it isn't a brand new "next generation" system.

If they wanted to just add EMV cards they probably could have done so by now, but that would be a lost opportunity to adopt an account-based system which could use mobile phones instead of smartcards (think of the cost savings in not issuing cards).

As for the question of a common card: as I said above that's what your EMV tap-and-go card will be, but if/when all transit agencies adopt account-based systems there may also be the possibility of account interchangeability similar to the toll road accounts.


Barry Drive

Earlier this year, TCCS said the supplier of new ticket system would be "appointed by mid-year".

Refer: actbus.net/update-on-next-generation-public-transport-ticketing-system

It's now July. No contract has been published.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I just wish we can have a system where only tapping on is required and tapping off is optional. Kinda like what Melbourne had when I last visited many years ago with thier Miki system.
A more reliable system that actually locks onto the stops better too, jumping on a bus constantly only to have to communicate to the drivers that "the machine is red" can quite often be time consuming - plus costly for when the driver changes routes before you get a chance to tag off.

triumph

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on July 03, 2022, 11:53:04 AMI just wish we can have a system where only tapping on is required and tapping off is optional. Kinda like what Melbourne had when I last visited many years ago with thier Miki system.
A more reliable system that actually locks onto the stops better too, jumping on a bus constantly only to have to communicate to the drivers that "the machine is red" can quite often be time consuming - plus costly for when the driver changes routes before you get a chance to tag off.

There is a wrinkle in Melbourne. For journeys wholly in zone 2, tapping off is necessary to attract the cheapest fare.

It is quite wrong that MyWay users can be subject to penalty fares when system issues result in a 'synthetic log off' (meaning the system thinks the customer has not logged off) even though the customer has validly tapped off/can't tap off. (Does the system trap any of these events?). There are other relevant issues of incorrect records I have previously commented on.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Barry Drive on July 02, 2022, 08:12:18 PMIt's now July. No contract has been published.
An announcement is expected in the next few months.

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on July 03, 2022, 11:53:04 AMI just wish we can have a system where only tapping on is required and tapping off is optional.
Tapping on is SO last decade. With an account based system using an app, physically tapping on (and off) is unnecessary.

One possibility is to use a QR code check in system - every bus and tram stop will display a QR code which you scan as you board. This will deduct a fare from your account (if required) and the phone app is your ticket. Such a system will overcome many of the problems discussed above.

Tapping on can be limited to tap-and-go bank cards and smartcards for those without access to an app. (Might be worth providing a discount to the app to encourage its use.)

[Obviously this is entirely speculative, and may not resemble what is actually implemented.]

Sylvan Loves Buses

Once like the old magnetic machines was enough, this whole on AND off thing has always been annoying.

Quote from: Barry Drive on July 07, 2022, 11:49:42 AMOne possibility is to use a QR code check in system - every bus and tram stop will display a QR code which you scan as you board
Think I've seen NSW buses with something like this, maybe, but... what about for those of us without mobile phones?

Bus 400

The QR code at selected train stations & on buses was COVID contact tracing. 

I can't even see why TC can't implement a subscription style service such as about to be trialled in Sydney. Users pay a weekly amount from first check in. No reason why TC couldn't take over the Check In CBR app to try this either.

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on February 26, 2023, 11:23:09 PMReplacement contract for the new ticketing system has been signed according to the lead item of the ABC 7 o'clock news tonight.
ABC Canberra news article

Media Release from Minister Steel

verbatim9

#20
Quote from: Barry Drive on February 27, 2023, 12:23:51 PMABC Canberra news article

Media Release from Minister Steel

Finally and interesting choice. Now the challenge is to get it rolled out in a timely manner.

Here is an additional article on it

Riotact---> Supplier finally secured for Canberra's new public transport ticketing system

QuoteSeven years after it was first flagged, a supplier has been secured to deliver Canberra's new smart public transport ticketing system.

verbatim9

It will be interesting how they implement the cross border solution.

QuoteIt will also be designed for future integration with cross-jurisdictional services such as Queanbeyan.

Sylvan Loves Buses

I mean it's about time they combined that.

Barry Drive

#23
Quote from: verbatim9 on February 28, 2023, 11:07:21 AMIt will be interesting how they implement the cross border solution.
They're not saying they will, just that a open-loop system makes it easier.

They're also not saying there will be an integrated fare system.

In simple terms, it should be possible to use a TC MyWay+ card to pay for a CDC fare - similar to how toll road operators have interoperability arrangements with their various E tags. But it would require CDC to have compatible card readers and the infrastructure to support it.


verbatim9

#24
Here is some additional information and a picture of a reader that NEC could provide. --- https://www.nec.com.au/download_file/view/3365/1433&ved=2ahUKEwjzwJe47v7-AhWgsVYBHW-ZDZIQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2jgrvr9YGGfUEIcAx1S4Aw

Barry Drive

#25
With the contract published this week, more details are known of exactly how MyWay+ will operate. The ACT Bus website now has an article with this information:
actbus.net/myway-plus-what-you-need-to-know/

To address specific matters from this topic:

Quote from: Barry Drive on July 07, 2022, 11:49:42 AMOne possibility is to use a QR code check in system - every bus and tram stop will display a QR code which you scan as you board. This will deduct a fare from your account (if required) and the phone app is your ticket. Such a system will overcome many of the problems discussed above.
Sadly, they've gone with the exact opposite of this. The app will generate a QR code which has to scanned on the bus or platform. (I still think my idea is better.)

Quote from: Barry Drive on April 25, 2021, 01:01:22 PM... some sort of smartcard will still be needed for all concessions and it wouldn't be that difficult to provide one for full fare customers either (perhaps with a $5 fee as occurs now).

I would also expect the plan would be for TVMs to continue to exist and for more of them to be installed at busy stops / interchanges to allow for cash tickets and top-ups.

Given that the on-bus equipment will accept bank cards, I would also like to see the option of card top ups and multiple ticket sales allowed on the bus as well as at TVMs.
1. Smartcards will still exist, but concessions will need to registered onto an account. For some, this may require assistance through a call centre, but shouldn't be much different to how it works now.

2. TVMs will still exist, but there won't be any added. (Not yet, anyway.)

3. There will be no option to purchase or top up tickets with bus drivers. However, it may be possible to purchase "group tickets" through TVMs.

Quote from: verbatim9 on May 18, 2023, 10:31:29 PMHere is some additional information and a picture of a reader that NEC could provide.
The contract states that the card readers will be supplied by SC Soft.

This is what one looks like:


triumph


Excerpts from the Riot Act today

....
Canberra commuters will be able to test run the ACT's new bus and light rail ticketing system on a demonstration bus Transport Canberra will roll out in the first half of next year.

Transport Minister Chris Steel said the government was working with supplier NEC on the final design of the MyWay card replacement, to be known as MyWay+.

The new system will allow passengers to pay for their travel with a contactless mobile payment system using a phone app, smartwatch, traditional travel card or credit/debit card to tap on and off and deliver real-time information and a journey planner to commuters.

Mr Steel explained the government expected the new system to be rolled out in the second half of 2024.

"I'm really looking forward to the announcement of a new MyWay+ demonstration bus, which will be part of a significant education campaign that will be rolled out in the lead-up to the new ticketing system," he said.

Mr Steel added that the hardware to be installed on buses and light rail vehicles had been ordered.

He said the work on the MyWay+ design was on schedule.
....



Barry Drive

As has been mentioned a few times recently, they plan to fit out a few buses with demonstration systems in early 2024.

No further information is known: will they be operational buses, or just static displays?

Something else of relevance is that the Optus 3G network which NXTBUS uses is scheduled to be decommissioned by September 2024. Which sets a seemingly non-negotiable deadline for at least the real time component.

Barry Drive

#28
Quote from: triumph on January 16, 2021, 10:52:20 PMWhilst Mark has had a go, like most Opposition pot shots, he has omitted to say what the Opposition would do or recommend be done? Costs, if the tenders/prices given to the buyer are not value for money and/or wildly in excess of a properly developed estimate, why wouldn't the buyer reject them? Does the Opposition want the project (and, for that matter, any project) to proceed when the price is not value for money, just so a date can be met?

While fear-mongering about the 3G shutdown on ABC Radio last week, he did actually state what he would do: "piggyback onto the Opal system".

Which, as I've stated before, is not a next-generation system. While it has an extremely useful app and supports EMV (credit) cards, it still uses a stored value Smartcard.

To basically ditch your current system and replace it with one which is 50% the same seems like a waste of money.

There's also questions about costs, timeframes and whether Opal could even support a different jurisdiction with different concession rules. And whether the NSW Government would allow it.

The better approach that could have been taken (but it's way too late now) was to jointly develop a new system with another state and share the costs. Although it does look like everyone is experiencing some delays in delivering new account-based systems.

There is a new article which details the journey to where we are now with MyWay+ being months away from implementation.

https://www.actbus.net/the-long-journey-to-myway/


Bus 400

There is OpalPay, AFAIK, this includes multiple private operators & their different fare systems.
I'd assume TC would be added to this, if needed.

Whilst it's a dream for now, I wonder if this would allow Opal cards to be used in Canberra temporarily or MyWay in Sydney. 

triumph

There is a more relevant local issue too - Queanbeyan. Just absurd that there is no fare collection co-ordination.

Snorzac

The CDC Canberra fare collection system is botched without trying to coordinate with Canberra. In Friday whilst waiting for a 56 in the City I witnessed a CDC bus loading quite a heavy load for an 830, the process took so long that the buses idle timer actually timed out engine before boarding was complete. They would really benefit from a tag on/tag off system 

Barry Drive

#32
Quote from: Bus 400 on March 11, 2024, 09:07:02 PMThere is OpalPay, AFAIK, this includes multiple private operators & their different fare systems.
I'd assume TC would be added to this, if needed.
For those who are hard of hearing: Opal still uses stored-value Smartcards. From the very start, TC/ACT Government have wanted an account based system - since they offer more flexible fare arrangements and instant account top ups. (If you need a constant data connection to run your credit card payment system, you might as well go the whole way and run an account based fare system. The only advantage from using a Smartcard was not needing a permanent data connection, but it's now the 2020s, not the 2000s.)

And, correct me if I'm wrong: the Opal credit card payment system only allows for full fares, but not concessions.

Also: I referred to concession rules, not fare rules. For instance, ACT Seniors over 70 are eligible for free travel in ACT, but not NSW; student concession rules are also different - an acceptable ACT Tertiary student might not be acceptable in NSW. (By the way, this will also pose a problem for cross-border fares. However, I'm assuming the NEC system will permit multiple concession flags, since it's not limited by Smartcard storage.)

Bus 400

Opal contactless payments are similarly to Tfl Oyster in being adult fares only. Opalpay allows concession, but that's like the CDC Canberra system. 

Anything else I was only mentioning IF TC joins Opal. Which we don't know how or if it will even happen.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Snorzac on March 24, 2024, 10:12:57 AMI don't think the demo buses will be anything other than retired PR100.2 ... I could be wrong
I think you're wrong on this one. Although we still don't know exactly what the demonstration buses will do: will they operate in service; will they accept old MyWay cards?

We do know that they will have an advertising wrap, so I would assume they will be regular service buses. Hopefully we'll know this in a few weeks.


triumph

So the Test lead is an 8 month contract. Advertised 23 days ago. Assuming appointee can start say mid May, implies mid January '25 to complete the work. Ummm.