MyWay - general/operational discussion

Started by smitho, May 06, 2010, 08:36:22 PM

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Bus 400

But they'll be charged $2-4 each trip rather then $1.26-$2.52. Also the $4 deafult fare doesn't come with a 90 minute transfer, so if they catch more then bus each way that is $8-16 a day.

Barry Drive

March 23, 2011, 07:10:26 PM #101 Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 11:54:45 PM by MyWay
To get the daily /monthly cap you must tag off everytime. If you fail to tag off you will be charged $4 even if you have reached the cap (from what I can gather). However, you MIGHT not be charged the penalty fare for all transfers within 90 minutes of the initial tag on if you tag off the first trip.

But I can't be sure because the tag off penalty is currently inactive.

Also the failure to tag off penalty will not count towards the daily cap - but the regular fare should (ie $2.52 will be recorded towards the cap even though $4 was charged).

ajw373

Ah looks like I missed the fare conditions at the bottom of the page that says you will be charged $4 to board reduced to $2.52 if you tag off (after the transition period). Bit like Oyster in London when used on the tube. You would think the website would have the good old * to say you really need to read the conditions further down the page.

Now why with a flat fare structure ACTION needs people to tag on and off is beyond me. Sure I understand the need for statistics, but think this will be one big PIA for the cattle for little extra gain for ACTION. Surley the boarding stats and being able to follow a passengers journey on subsequent boardings would give a fair idea of where the passengers are going without the need for this.

Being the cynic I am, I do wonder if ACTION are trying to condition us for a return to sectional fares in the future where tagging on and off will be needed.

Barry Drive

March 24, 2011, 10:53:44 AM #103 Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 11:56:32 PM by MyWay
Quote from: ajw373 on March 23, 2011, 08:36:58 PM
Ah looks like I missed the fare conditions at the bottom of the page that says you will be charged $4 to board reduced to $2.52 if you tag off (after the transition period).
Not quite: that's the Brisbane way of doing things. The fare will always be deducted from the card at tag off, unless you failed to tag off on the last trip in which case the default fare (for the last trip) will be charged when you next tag on.

Quote from: ajw373 on March 23, 2011, 08:36:58 PM
Now why with a flat fare structure ACTION needs people to tag on and off is beyond me. Sure I understand the need for statistics, but think this will be one big PIA for the cattle for little extra gain for ACTION. Surely the boarding stats and being able to follow a passengers journey on subsequent boardings would give a fair idea of where the passengers are going without the need for this.
Agreed, but the system they bought was based on a tag on/tag off method. Had they chosen the INIT tender, there would not be any tagging off.  (And don't call me Shirley.)

Quote from: ajw373 on March 23, 2011, 08:36:58 PM
Being the cynic I am, I do wonder if ACTION are trying to condition us for a return to sectional fares in the future where tagging on and off will be needed.
A lot of people think this; I am not one of them. It does not make any sense to spend millions on getting the system in place, testing it, fixing up errors only to subsequently spend a lot more money to re-develop the system to implement a sectional/zonal fare structure. If they wanted to do that, the best time to do it is at the start. Also a sectional fare structure would prevent a monthly trip cap from being applied (or at least make it harder).

And, by the way, MyWay is run by Transport Planning, not ACTION!

Quote from: Bus 400 on March 23, 2011, 07:04:11 PM
Also the $4 deafult fare doesn't come with a 90 minute transfer, so if they catch more then bus each way that is $8-16 a day.
Not sure about this. The MyWay fare chart simply says that if you don't tag off you will be charged the default fare for the trip - a 'trip' always includes a 90 minute transfer.

ajw373

Quote from: MyWay on March 24, 2011, 10:53:44 AM
Not quite: that's the Brisbane way of doing things. The fare will always be deducted from the card at tag off, unless you failed to tag off on the last trip in which case the default fare (for the last trip) will be charged when you next tag on.

You sure? If that was the case how would it check that someone had sufficient balance? Also would it allow an adult on if they had $3 balance considering the fare will be $2.52 or will it expect to see $4. Oyster in London (on tube only as bus is a flat fare) works this way. Ie it takes the maximum fare at tag on and refunds the balance at tag off. To enter a station your card needs the maximum fare to enter. Fail to tag off means your charged the maximum fare, and like Myway that trip doesn't count for the daily cap. If the above is 100% true at what point does Myway determine if you haven't tagged off, and what mechanism then sends that information to the card or to each and every bus in real time?

You need to remember the card keeps a track of it's own balance, and if something changes the system needs to update the card. Using London as an example (having just moved back after 4 years living there), none of the machines on the buses were able to write new instructions to the the card. All the ticket machine could do is read the balance and process the fare and write the new balance back. If the credit dropped below the threshold it would then add the auto top-up amount to the card and later that night when back in the depot send the info to the main computer system. The only info about cards that was sent to the ticket machines were cards that were blocked for what ever reason. Otherwise the amount of data sent to each ticket machine would be HUGE. Anyway the point being if Myway doesn't take the full fare when you tag on, how on earth would the next bus know you haven't tagged off and then charge the maximum fare for the previous ride. Especially if the user was a once in 6 months type user? Do you think each and every machine would keep track of every tag off to do this? That's what would be needed to do it as you suggest. It simply doesn't make logical or IT sense to me.


Quote from: MyWay on March 24, 2011, 10:53:44 AMAgreed, but the system they bought was based on a tag on/tag off method. Had they chosen the INIT tender, there would not be any tagging off.  (And don't call me Shirley.)

I think you will find it had tag off because ACTION (transport ACT or who ever they are) specified it. Working in IT and comms I cannot see any reason what so ever why the system couldn't be tailored to exactly how the customer wants it, ie tag on only or tag on/tag off.

Quote from: MyWay on March 24, 2011, 10:53:44 AMA lot of people think this; I am not one of them. It does not make any sense to spend millions on getting the system in place, testing it, fixing up errors only to subsequently spend a lot more money to re-develop the system to implement a sectional/zonal fare structure. If they wanted to do that, the best time to do it is at the start. Also a sectional fare structure would prevent a monthly trip cap from being applied (or at least make it harder).

Don't agree on this one. I, again as an IT person I believe the best way (if they were moving back towards sections) would be to introduce the new system as a more or less direct replacement for the existing system and change later. There would be bugger all development needed, again I have no doubt what so ever that the exiting system has the ability to operate like that in-built now. As for caps, caps can still be applied on a zonal/sectional system. Again look towards London to see how it's done.

Barry Drive

March 24, 2011, 11:54:07 PM #105 Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 12:06:59 AM by MyWay
Quote from: ajw373 on March 24, 2011, 02:17:07 PM
You sure?

Try reading what I said again:
QuoteThe fare will always be deducted from the card at tag off, unless you failed to tag off on the last trip in which case the default fare (for the last trip) will be charged when you next tag on.

Every card has a lot of data on it. Including the TOTO status and the last trip taken. So if your TOTO status is "Tagged On" and it was for (say) Bus 412 doing route 5 which departed City at 12:17 on 24/3/11 - if you tag that card on another bus (or the same bus doing another route), then it treats it as a new tag on and therefore knows that the last trip wasn't tagged off and may apply the default fare. It's not difficult. And it does make sense.

As for the balance threshold, SmartRider (Perth) has a rule which says you need a minimum 2-section fare on your card at all times. MyWay does not seem to do this - I am unaware of whether there is a minimum threshold. What I do know is that if you have a negative balance on your card you cannot tag on (which also means that you CAN have a negative balance).

Quote from: ajw373 on March 24, 2011, 02:17:07 PM
I think you will find it had tag off because ACTION (transport ACT or who ever they are) specified it.
Maybe. But the two short listed tenderers were Downer EDI (as agent for Parkeon) and INIT. INIT's best known system, Metrocard, does not use a tag off system (even though Tassie's system would work better if it did). I doubt that they would have been shortlisted if the system they were offering did not meet with TAMS's requirements. And yes, it's possible that Downer was chosen because its system offered tag off and INIT didn't, but it is also as likely that Downer won the tender for other reasons (such as price).

You have to remember that TAMS wanted to buy a proven system rather than develop their own from scratch, even if that meant buying a system with a tag off requirement when it isn't necessary.

Quote from: ajw373 on March 24, 2011, 02:17:07 PM
I believe the best way (if they were moving back towards sections) ...
You are pre-supposing facts not in evidence. Yes, sectional fares could be put in IF the current system was set up to enable this to occur by changing data on some tables. But if such a system were required (sectional fares which can be adjusted through the use of data tables), then, in the opinion of an IT person who has had plenty of experience with building and testing IT systems (i.e. ME), it would need to be built and tested when the system first goes in to make sure it will work if and when it is eventually needed. However if TAMS need to pay additional money to Downer to modify the system to apply sectional fares, it won't happen.

I've done some quick study on the Oyster card and its Monthly Trip cap is different to MyWay - Oyster is more like Myki. I maintain my argument that sectional fares and the MyWay monthly trip cap will not work well together.

Quote from: ajw373 on March 23, 2011, 08:36:58 PMYou would think the website would have the good old * to say you really need to read the conditions further down the page.

Maybe you should have read the ACT Bus MyWay fares page instead.

Bus 400

Quote from: MyWay on March 24, 2011, 10:53:44 AM
Not sure about this. The MyWay fare chart simply says that if you don't tag off you will be charged the default fare for the trip - a 'trip' always includes a 90 minute transfer.

I overheard a Transport for Canberra worker explaining what I said to an elderly lady at the Civic MyWay Centre. They attempted to explain this to her 3-4 times.


Also TAMS bring word that the Belconnen MyWay Centre will finally open on Monday http://www.tams.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/222099/MR168_0311_Belconnen_MyWay_Centre_opens.pdf.

Bus 400

Bus 784 now sports MyWay readers at the front & rear doors, but no MyWay driver console is installed.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Bus 400 on March 25, 2011, 07:40:03 PM
I overheard a Transport for Canberra worker explaining what I said to an elderly lady at the Civic MyWay Centre. They attempted to explain this to her 3-4 times.
What is said at a MyWay centre and what is true are often two very different things. Just ask Metrobus.

SmartRider has a 60 minute rule:
QuoteAn exception to the default fare rule will apply if the next tag on occurs within 60 minutes of the previous tag on.

In this case, the next tag on location will instead be processed as the incomplete tag off location. This ensures that you are charged the relevant fare rather than the penalty fare, in the event of unintentional failure to tag off whilst transferring from one service to another.

This rule only applies when the tag on occured on board a bus.
Did a test today by not tagging off then a tag on with 15 minutes. Normal fare charged, transfer accepted and no "default fare" error message displayed. Looks like MyWay also has a 60 minute rule, or some variation of it.

Aenveigh

Quote from: MyWay on March 30, 2011, 12:58:25 PM
What is said at a MyWay centre and what is true are often two very different things. Just ask Metrobus.

SmartRider has a 60 minute rule:Did a test today by not tagging off then a tag on with 15 minutes. Normal fare charged, transfer accepted and no "default fare" error message displayed. Looks like MyWay also has a 60 minute rule, or some variation of it.

Yes, it shows up later as a "synthetic" tag off. Useful to know.

rubaisport

As its the weekend I thought Id ask you guys instead of trying to call up ACTION. I started off with $20 on my MyWay card and have used up all but $1.10 of the credit. I topped up my balance online with another $20 two Fridays ago and my bank account was charged on Tuesday. But this isn't shown on the balance page on the ACTION website. Am I right in assuming that the credit will applied once I tag-on or is there actually something wrong here?

Barry Drive

Yes, that's the theory. I know that the Perth system shows unapplied credits on its web system. Looks like with MyWay you must tag-on for the credit to be put on the account. Let up know what happens - all information is useful.

Bus 400

My Autoload set up was activated on my MyWay when I tagged on a bus on Tuesday, I handed in the form on the previous Monday.

rubaisport

When I tagged on this morning the machine gave a message saying something along the lines of $20 has been added.

Snorzac

464 is MyWay only, they have completely removed the old system, there is a plate covering the hole in the dash that the bracket for the old validator used to be.

Whilst this is not the first bus to receive this treatment, it is the first bus to get it after entering service (ie. The only ones like it are from 432 and up)

Bus 400

April 07, 2011, 02:24:16 PM #115 Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 03:39:01 PM by Bus 400
Bus 345 only has the brackets where the Wayfarer drive module & validator once sat. I'm not sure if it is 345 or not, but there was a Tuggeranong bus that went MyWay only in the first week of MyWay's going public.

EDIT: 466 has had the same treatment as 464.

Barry Drive

424 would have been the first to get this treatment. But it may not have ever had both systems installed.

Barry Drive

Addendum: 424 had the old system taken out but did not have a blanking plate installed where the validator bracket used to be. So it may be correct to say that 464 was the first bus to have the blanking plate installed after the bus entered service, but it was not the first to have the old Wayfarer system completely removed.

743

The frequency at which I'm being charged no fare because of the "change of mind" issue is becoming a little concerning. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate the free ride but it can't be doing ACTION much good. I'm surprised there isn't a built-in failsafe or something where, say, if you're on the bus for more than two or three minutes, then it would still charge a default fare, even if the GPS is locked. Surely that's more than enough time for someone to realise they're on the wrong bus? I don't really think "change of mind" is even a valid excuse for not being charged a fare - the bus destination board, and/or bus operator should be enough to prevent this ever happening!

Snorzac

The whole "Change of mind" thing is stupid.

Speaking of stupid, that word is the best way to describe the way it takes fares of school students:
On a school day it will charge me $0.95 a trip capping at $3.80, but on a weekend (or school holiday day) I get charged $1.26 a ride capping at $1.70 even if it is a school holiday day and I travel in peak apparently I will never pay more than that. Is it just me or is this strange?

Sir Pompously

During the trial I got a whole day of travel for about $2.52 thanks to change of mind. In other cities; Change of mind is not available on buses or trams for Myki, but can be used at train stations. Brisbane allows change of mind on all modes, however you have to tag off at the same reader within 20 minutes (ok for train stations, but 20 minutes is too long for buses). Do not know about smart rider, could not see change of mind there. However, for Canberra, change of mind should be available but only for 2 minutes or less after touching on and after that time it should charge a standard fare aslong as the passenger tags off, no matter what the GPS Says.

Barry Drive

Smart rider does have change of mind at Train stations for about 15 minutes; unsure about buses.

But agree: it should either have a time limit or be restricted to the driver console.

Bus 400

Quote from: MyWay on April 10, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Smart rider does have change of mind at Train stations for about 15 minutes; unsure about buses.

Buses are the same.

Buzz Killington

What do the different suffixes on the transaction history route list indicate?

I saw N and S and presumed they were north and south, but I've since had O, A and C.

The Love Guru

They are all used on different variations of runs Buzz. Every short working etc has a different myway code to that of the full run, so that the myway console only starts the run at the correct point. I'm not even sure the use N and S to show North and South. There are many runs with a large number of variations.

Buzz Killington

Thanks Guru, I suspected that may have been the case.

As for N/S meaning North and South, that's not the case. I've had N on a number of southbound routes.

Buzz Killington

For those who have submitted a form to have their unused magnetic tickets credited to their MyWay account, apparently they have been a bit overwhelmed and as a result the credit will likely take longer than the 14 days currently quoted.

p_stampy

I had one ride left on my old ticket, I'm not going to bother :/

Buzz Killington

I got charged $1.41 for a ride at 4:40 this arvo.. that seems rather cheap?

Barry Drive

$7.60 daily cap? Can't find any way for that to work. Need to check your history to explain it.

Snorzac

Quote from: Buzz Killington on April 21, 2011, 08:48:00 PM
I got charged $1.41 for a ride at 4:40 this arvo.. that seems rather cheap?
Bpay top up?

Bus 400

The MyWay balance history now shows your last 100 transactions. This is a good job & a step in the right direction.

Buzz Killington

Quote from: MyWay on April 21, 2011, 10:02:37 PM
$7.60 daily cap?

That would be it. Generally my daily travel isn't such that I would approach the cap let alone pass it so the thought didn't even occur to me

Bus 400

Below is the new Concession cards that can be used to obtain a concession fare:





Some of the cards are different such as the Centrelink card, but also note that Kambah High School is still used as an example. I do wonder how old the young lady in the photo is.

Busnerd


Bus It

There was a glitch on my afternoon bus trip today. I tagged on in Deakin, and when I tagged off in Isaacs the ticket machine said "Change of mind" and didn't deduct any money from my account :o

Buzz Killington

Quote from: Bus It on May 02, 2011, 05:27:16 PM
There was a glitch on my afternoon bus trip today. I tagged on in Deakin, and when I tagged off in Isaacs the ticket machine said "Change of mind" and didn't deduct any money from my account :o

Happened to me twice last week, despite the time between tagging on and off being about half an hour.

Bus It

That could be quite a floor in the system, oh well I hope it happens to me a lot  ;D


743

Change Of Mind has stopped happening to me lately - which I reckon is a good thing. Perhaps some of the issues are starting to be ironed out. Autoload works perfectly, 5% discount included  ;D

Bus It

Quote from: 743 on May 02, 2011, 09:29:06 PM
Change Of Mind has stopped happening to me lately - which I reckon is a good thing. Perhaps some of the issues are starting to be ironed out. Autoload works perfectly, 5% discount included  ;D
You really want to pay for bus rides??? More bus rides should be free :) That's why the old system was so good

Bus It

I really do think that there is one main part of the MyWay system that could do with improving. If the driver's console was equipped with the function to tag off all School students that are currently on that bus, then that would save heaps of time once the bus has arrived at the school (the final destination).

Barry Drive

You can't "auto tag off" since the card needs to be updated when tag off occurs. What you need is trips which won't attract the penalty for failing to tagging off. It's not difficult. The problem is that TfC want the passenger stats.

Sir

Quote from: Bus It on May 02, 2011, 10:39:28 PM
I really do think that there is one main part of the MyWay system that could do with improving. If the driver's console was equipped with the function to tag off all School students that are currently on that bus, then that would save heaps of time once the bus has arrived at the school (the final destination).

Yes but most school buses stop at different schools. Our morning bus can be pretty packed but getting 2 thirds of the kids off can take only a minute. The driver does open the back door though.

743

The speaker in the front unit in 124 was playing up a treat yesterday. When a tag on / off was registered, it would make a noise the equivalent of the standard beep mixed in with someone scraping their fingernails on a blackboard.

Bus 400

Quote from: Metrobus on May 14, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
sprinting to Belconnen as I didn't find my MyWay card until the 905 was passing

To save this trouble happening again, you can leave your MyWay in one of the back sleeves of your wallet, then just hold your wallet against the reader. I don't think ACTION advised the public much about this during the early days. Which is why lots of people thimble through trying to find cards to tag on/off. While I did learn this while in Perth.

The Love Guru

Quote from: Bus 400 on May 16, 2011, 09:21:16 PM
To save this trouble happening again, you can leave your MyWay in one of the back sleeves of your wallet, then just hold your wallet against the reader. I don't think ACTION advised the public much about this during the early days. Which is why lots of people thimble through trying to find cards to tag on/off. While I did learn this while in Perth.

Dangerous assuming that Zac actually knows where his wallet is!

Buzz Killington


Snorzac

May 16, 2011, 10:02:17 PM #148 Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 10:02:29 PM by Metrobus


I would keep it in my wallet but my "Paypass" eftpos card interferes with it.

Busnerd

and suddenly pay pass doesn't seem like such a good idea! Try Visa Pay Wave :P also LOL at the bra joke