Renaults a go go: the final frontier

Started by Barry Drive, October 24, 2022, 10:06:01 AM

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Sylvan Loves Buses

They're more reliable than buses half their age lol

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on March 15, 2023, 07:31:34 PMWonder why there is such a shortage of other buses that Renaults are appearing on R services which are supposed to be 100% accessible?

This might be the reason:
Quote from: 743 on January 26, 2023, 08:40:33 AMIn the interim the use of old Renault diesel buses will be minimised as much as possible on the route bus network.

What might have happened is that in order to minimise Renault use, all available low floor buses were put into service: only for a bus to breakdown, or not start. With all low floors in use, the only available replacement would be a Renault.

Busnerd

All services are meant to be 100% accessible, not just rapids. People will just have to choose to wait for the next service as they have done for 30 years or just wait 3 months until all the high floors are gone.

triumph

Quote from: Barry Drive on March 18, 2023, 07:19:38 PMThis might be the reason:
What might have happened is that in order to minimise Renault use, all available low floor buses were put into service: only for a bus to breakdown, or not start. With all low floors in use, the only available replacement would be a Renault.
There is actually a case for restricting replacement Renaults to the frequent R services as the wait for a low floor is minimised, but this may not be practical as many shifts seem to be a mix of R and Local trips.
But referring to Barry Drive's post. I had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays? Short of a political or TC announcement providing some clarification, we are unlikely to know.
The present circumstances still imply that determining the last public and school services operated by Renaults may be a challenge. 
Whatever, for those keen on Renaults not everything is an ill-wind.

 

Bus It

Quote from: triumph on March 20, 2023, 10:45:22 PMThere is actually a case for restricting replacement Renaults to the frequent R services as the wait for a low floor is minimised, but this may not be practical as many shifts seem to be a mix of R and Local trips.
But referring to Barry Drive's post. I had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays? Short of a political or TC announcement providing some clarification, we are unlikely to know.
The present circumstances still imply that determining the last public and school services operated by Renaults may be a challenge. 
Whatever, for those keen on Renaults not everything is an ill-wind.

 
Given that I've seen far more Irisbuses around even during shoulder periods, this could be contributing to more maintenance issues/breakdowns than before.

Barry Drive

Quote from: triumph on March 20, 2023, 10:45:22 PMI had wondered whether there had been a temporary surge in breakdowns/accidents as suggested by Barry, AND/OR is the problem more subtle, and to do with understaffing in the workshops and/or parts delivery delays?
I think: neither. There's no evidence of any surge in breakdowns, nor of any understaffing or backlog in workshops.

A single Renault on an R3 is simply that: a single occurrence. My explanation was that it was due to bad timing: a breakdown (or vehicle unavailability) that occurred at a time when there were no spare low floor buses - due to a policy to limit the use of PR100.2s wherever possible (which may also have been exacerbated by Irisbus unavailability as posited by Bus It.)

** Also it's only a theory **

Meanwhile (getting back to topic): Tuggeranong has only 7 Renaults left in service. They may not last past the end of School Term 1.

triumph

Quote from: triumph on March 02, 2023, 03:43:44 PMAround 3.55pm at Westfield Belconnen there are often 3 Renaults simultaneously at Plat 2 on local outbound services. This was the case yesterday, but can't be for much longer.
The opportunity still exists, but luck is involved in having all 3 at the platform simultaneously, and even more so nose to tail. Today each of the 3 services (all conformed outbound) arrived and departed separately (one was 927, still active).
The opportunity will probably continue at least until 723, etc. enter service, which may be only a matter of a few working days now, from the Belconnen Depot.
(It only seems possible at present to check by observation as Any Trip, when I look, does not show live detail for route 46, which with 40 and 41 are the routes involved.)

Sylvan Loves Buses

#57
I'm just glad my 71/72s are still getting them. I suppose given they're the first active Renault shifts for both morning and afternoons the drivers are getting first picks, but with only 6 or something Tuggy Renault's left in service and Anytrip not always picking them up, it's getting tricky.
I finally got around to trying out my plan again last week, sadly only running the morning section of it as I was too tired by midday, still managed to get 5 Belco Renault runs in a row without fail. Will have to attempt the second half at some point before it's too late - still haven't ridden a couple of the 950s one last time (rip 956). Almost got 944 on that day too lol, why are they still training drivers on them? Seems such a waste at this point.

743

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on March 31, 2023, 05:58:03 AMAlmost got 944 on that day too lol, why are they still training drivers on them? Seems such a waste at this point.
The driver training may not be Renault-specific, rather it might be general heavy vehicle familiarisation (lane placement, turning, weight etc), route familiarisation and so on. Given there are two vehicles already specifically allocated as trainers, it means they can be used if and when required (including peak hour) without taking away from the 'active' fleet.
It does raise the question though of the future of the training fleet. Would it be worth holding on to two vehicles which would no longer be standard within the fleet? Despite them being trainers, maintenance and spare parts would still be required. Time will tell, I guess.

Barry Drive

#59
Quote from: 743 on March 31, 2023, 08:02:18 AMIt does raise the question though of the future of the training fleet.
I did pose that question at the start of this topic.

The minister has stated that each new bus will be a "one for one" replacement for a Renault PR100.2 - and so far this is exactly what has occurred:

974 - 800
975 - 808
956 - 722
973 - 809
978 - 811
977 - 807
981 - 810
969 - 806
970 - 802
972 - 801

But: they will be getting 38 new buses to replace 37 Renaults. So in theory they may be able to afford to transfer two low floor buses to become permanent trainers (e.g 390 & 391). However, there's also the question of whether 693 is permanently withdrawn and needs to be replaced (or does Belconnen give up another bus to cover for it)?

Edit: OK, maybe not MANs - they aren't old enough to be relegated to be trainers. Irisbuses would be preferable for now.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Barry Drive on October 24, 2022, 10:06:01 AMTo recap, there are 39 in total: 927-963 at Belconnen (23), 969-982 at Tuggeranong (14) and 943-944 as trainers.
Based on best available information (and subject to change), 3 PR100.2s remain in service at Tuggeranong (979 980 & 982), with 944 & 976 now being used as trainers.

Belconnen has withdrawn 929 956 & 961.

Sylvan Loves Buses

#61
Having ridden 980 this morning, I can confirm a least one of those ;)
Nice while it lasts to have my normal 6-7am routes back.

triumph

The 3 Renaults coming through Platform 2 at Westfield Belconnen just before 4pm weekdays is still happening but mostly not together. Seen today passing separately.

triumph

With slow deliveries, the three weekday Renault departures from Platform 2 in the 10min up to 4pm are still happening, but my recent few observations have not found them at the platform together.
With the news (see 26 Scanias thread) that future deliveries are expected to be one per week, at one for one retirements, it seems the Renaults will now be soldiering on for another 4 to 5 months.   


triumph

Expected that. You didn't disappoint.
(BTW Platform 2 at Westfield, Belconnen)

Sylvan Loves Buses

Well I'm practically never up around Belconnen cuz I'm a valley boy, but it's good to know the Belco ones are (mostly) still on the same shifts as they were a couple months ago.

triumph

With the resumption of full services after the school holidays, the opportunity to perhaps see 3 Renaults simultaneously on departing services from Platform 2 at Westfield, Belconnen around 3.55pm has disappeared. Only 3 services around this time are now shown in the on-line TT as being non-disability suitable. Rtes 42 around 3.35pm, 45 around 3.45pm, and 41 around 3.55pm. So now normally one at a time.

Sylvan Loves Buses

The ones around 8 in the morning are still going. Saw a bunch on Monday.

Barry Drive

#69
Quote from: Barry Drive on April 01, 2023, 01:40:42 PMso far this is exactly what has occurred:

974 - 800
975 - 808
956 - 722
973 - 809
978 - 811
977 - 807
981 - 810
969 - 806
970 - 802
972 - 801
To update the list of withdrawn buses:

976*
971 - 803
961 - 804
929 - 805
955 - 723
930* - 724
952 - 725
962* - 726
939 - 727
935 - 728

* transferred to training duties

triumph

Article in today's Riot Act on the new Custom Denning Element, attributes Minister Steel as advising that due to delays in the leasing of diesel buses, the Renaults will not be phased out until early 2024. That's a bit vague still - how early I wonder?

Barry Drive

It's deliberately vague. To date, BusTech have failed to meet their commitments - so why should the minister make definite announcements when he has no direct control over them?


Barry Drive

Update: if the promised 9 Scanias arrive this year, they should be enough to replace the remaining Belconnen Renaults. Assuming they can get them into service, Belconnen may not have any Renaults after December 2023 - although this is massively optimistic.

triumph

Quote from: Barry Drive on October 25, 2023, 11:19:45 PMUpdate: if the promised 9 Scanias arrive this year, they should be enough to replace the remaining Belconnen Renaults. Assuming they can get them into service, Belconnen may not have any Renaults after December 2023 - although this is massively optimistic.

Idle to speculate what has changed at the manufacturer? All sorts of possibilities including the completion of another contract allowing more production to be allocated to TC, a lot full of near finished buses (like at times Boeing and Airbus with new planes) awaiting specific parts from sub-suppliers with a 'container' due, supply of chassis at improved rate, specialist staff returning from leave, etc. and combinations of factors.

Fleetwiki says now 15 active Renaults. 748 has yet to result in a retirement. So 15 less 4 Elements, gives 11, the 9 due(??) gives 2 in service. If 693 returns before 2024 school starts, that leaves 1. Perhaps the return of the bus having its floor replaced might release this last Renault unless another floor replacement is pending, or more deliveries occur in January. So it very much depends on the 9 whether we even see any Renaults in service after the end of term 4 this year, or, less likely, after term 1 starts next year. Other unknowns (to me anyway) is whether any of the school runs are not integrated with other public runs, or runs can be adjusted (some overtime perhaps) to achieve that; in which case the final Renault(s) might end up only doing school runs. The possible flexibility of workshop scheduling and stand-by could also cover the retirement of the last Renault(s).

Bottom line remains, wait and see; and for surety get any wanted rides in ASAP, and at worst, before the end of this school term. 

 

Barry Drive

#75
I did say Belconnen (Depot). The minister/Transport Canberra are not brave enough to suggest all Renaults will be gone by December.

Even if all the buses are delivered as expected, they will still need to be fitted out and drivers trained between now and the end of January, since no Renaults are needed during School Holidays.

Quote from: triumph on October 28, 2023, 10:03:16 PM... a lot full of near finished buses (like at times Boeing and Airbus with new planes) awaiting specific parts from sub-suppliers with a 'container' due, supply of chassis at improved rate, specialist staff returning from leave, etc. and combinations of factors. 
Based on the statement given by the minister: all of the chassis have been delivered (to either BusTech or Scania Adelaide). Other than that, any of the above reasons could be possible. Reading other forums, there was a similar delay to supply of buses to Adelaide, so it wasn't due to Adelaide buses being given priority in the production line.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Barry Drive on February 06, 2024, 12:12:09 PMThe Yutong contract may start delivering buses mid-year, so IF they prioritise the withdrawal of the Renaults before the Scania gas buses, we might have the Renaults fully withdrawn in about August/September.

In Question Time on Wednesday, the minister did confirm that buses delivered under the Yutong contract will be used to withdraw Renaults (rather than Scania L94s, if there are still Renaults in service at the time).

Although there hasn't been a public delivery schedule, previous comments have suggested they will supply 30 buses a year. So my assumption is that in 2024 there will be a minimum of 15, since deliveries are expected to commence in July.

This will (or should) result in all Renaults being withdrawn by years end, one way or another.

Sylvan Loves Buses

Quote from: Barry Drive on February 08, 2024, 11:57:20 PMThis will (or should) result in all Renaults being withdrawn by years end
These words have been uttered by various people every year for the last 2 decades and yet here we stil are. What a joke all this has become hahaha.

Barry Drive

Quote from: Sylvan Loves Buses on February 13, 2024, 11:10:02 AMThese words have been uttered by various people every year for the last 2 decades and yet here we stil are.
Last 2 years, at most. (Yes, I'm aware it was hyperbole.)

The thing is, despite what some critics say, the problem of there still being low floor buses in service has two underlying causes:

1. Back in the late 1990s, the government of the time reduced the bus fleet by retiring more buses than were delivered. And then once the last of the Darts were in service, kept withdrawing buses without replacements.

From 1998 until 2004 we did not add one single new bus in service. Had we bought even a small quantity of low floor Mercs or Scanias back then, we would have met the DDA rule by 2022.

2. When the Irisbuses entered service in 2004 (yes: it's now been 20 years), there were around 400* buses in the fleet. Starting with the Irisbuses, ACTION has introduced 443 new buses to the fleet since 2004. So part of the problem was that although they've purchased enough buses to renew the fleet in 20 years, they failed to buy sufficient buses to expand the fleet.

* exact number to be added later

Barry Drive

I've dug out the numbers.

When the last PR100.3 was introduced (in Oct 1996), there were 391 buses in service.

After the last Dart was introduced (in Feb 1998), there were 372 buses in service.

The last of the Mercedes-Benz O.305s was withdrawn in Nov 1999, at which point there were 360 buses in service (of which 258 were PR100.2s).

When the Irisbus Agora Lines entered service in Feb 2004, the fleet count was 351 buses with 230 being PR100.2s.

So in 20 years, we've added over 100 buses to the fleet and gone from 32 low floor buses to 440 - but somehow it's a terrible thing that we fell short of fully retiring the PR100.2s by 15 buses? Maybe the better option was to not expand the fleet so much.

triumph

Another element to complete the picture was when the mandated date for removing non-disability compliant vehicles, etc. was introduced?

To be fair, it should be noted that plenty of other public transport systems are struggling in this space, For example many high floor trams in Melbourne, train station access in Sydney and Brisbane, etc..

The impact of Covid disruption and speed of demand recovery has proved to be much greater than, I think, was anticipated a couple of years ago. It has highlighted the interlocking nature of industry and society both locally and internationally, and the risky and fragile nature of some previously lauded (particularly by conservative elements) efficiency/economic practices - such as 'just in time' delivery in the manufacturing process, reliance on cheaper overseas resources, failure to train and employ school leavers sufficiently, etc..
An interesting question I haven't heard asked and rhetorically 'Why is there now a worker/skills shortage greater than pre-covid, when the then conservative Government provided the generous Job Keeper programme'? 
 

Bus 400

The below is a quote from the Reforms for the Disability Standards
for Accessible Public Transport 2002
Decision Regulation Impact Statement

QuoteThe Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) recognises the central role of public transport in everyday life. The DDA
makes discrimination on the basis of disability unlawful in the provision of public transport services, as it does in other
key areas of public life, such as employment and education.

Trains & trams have til 2032. Only Perth is 100%, but AFAIK, someone took the WA Government/PTA/Transperth to court. 

I can only assume low staff has to do with migration. Capitalism needs a set increase in population to function. For atleast 12 months Australia didn't accept new migrants. There's also been about 10-20 years of public & private sector not wanting to pay to train new employees in technical skills. Expecting the young to go into debt to learn skills, with no guarantee they'll get into the industry. Why pay $20,000 to learn to weld (total guess) when you can earn $30,000 a month on OF or other social media. 

triumph

The pattern of one out for each new bus entering service seems to have been broken with the retirement of 934 and 345. Note that 345 was disability compliant, so 2 new buses need to enter service to just restore the Renault retirement pattern. Perhaps entry to service of some of the 4 CD Element 2s delivered last year is being anticipated.

Snorzac

345 when last out of the depot was seen blocking a lane on the Tuggeranong Parkway in peak hour so it might be safe to say that some sort of catastrophic mechanical failure forcing an early retirement is at play there rather than a planned retirement...

triumph

The impact on the Renault retirements though is just as valid.
Presumably with the gas cylinder life expiry imminent, major repair of 345 with the associated off road delay, made repair not feasible.

triumph

Quote from: triumph on March 23, 2024, 11:09:33 PMThe pattern of one out for each new bus entering service seems to have been broken with the retirement of 934 and 345. Note that 345 was disability compliant, so 2 new buses need to enter service to just restore the Renault retirement pattern. Perhaps entry to service of some of the 4 CD Element 2s delivered last year is being anticipated.

The pattern is not quite as broken as I thought. Though not listed in fleet changes yet, I have just noticed 812 is shown in the Fleet List as delivered on the 27th March. It can't now be far from entering service.

L94UBbusfan

Sorry if this is off topic, but does anyone know why 345, 352 and 365 are withdrawn, and 326 and 342 out of service due to "mechanical reasons. Why were they the first to be withdrawn and not the remaining 3 Tuggeranong Renaults? As my name suggests, I want to get some more rides on the L94UBs before they all go out of service due to "mechanical reasons"

Bus It

Long story short, the CNG Scanias entered service from June 2004 with CNG tanks installed just prior to delivery. These tanks are rated (strictly) to 20 years where they either have to be replaced or the vehicles would need to be converted back to diesel or scrapped. I personally thought TC would have gone down the diesel conversion path however who knows how much this, plus tank removal would cost for each vehicle.

It's now become quite apparent that they intend on scrapping them for now at least when mechanical repair is not economical for only a few months of residual life. Just like the Renaults, were seeing these vehicles being scrapped from some things which would almost be considered routine for them.

triumph

Looks like TC will lose either way. Costly to attend to tanks, or costly to sell 20 year old vehicles to buyers who will undoubtedly factor the same costs into the buying price. Selling, provided enough new replacement are arriving, seems to me to be the better option, as the buses are entering high maintenance age and the replacements will be much better for the environment.
Another issue is the impact on Renault fleet reduction. A further complication is that it has been publicly said that each new bus into service equals one Renault retired.

L94UBbusfan

#89
Ah yes, I had a feeling this was the reason, but was unsure considering the fleet retirement wasn't in fleet order. As you said it really is a lose lose for TC. The remaining Scania and new electric buses better arrive soon or else there will be a short term bus shortage. This would mean the Renaults may stay even longer (Which I personally wouldn't mind!)

Bus 400

I wonder how hard it would be to convert a gas to electric? 

AFAIK, Port Stephens Coaches bought & converted a couple of ex-Brisbane CNG buses. I'm not aware of anyone else attempting this or how the buses are faring. 

triumph

Quote from: Bus It on April 15, 2024, 05:55:52 PMLong story short, the CNG Scanias entered service from June 2004 with CNG tanks installed just prior to delivery. These tanks are rated (strictly) to 20 years where they either have to be replaced or the vehicles would need to be converted back to diesel or scrapped. I personally thought TC would have gone down the diesel conversion path however who knows how much this, plus tank removal would cost for each vehicle.

It's now become quite apparent that they intend on scrapping them for now at least when mechanical repair is not economical for only a few months of residual life. Just like the Renaults, were seeing these vehicles being scrapped from some things which would almost be considered routine for them.

Looking more closely, and ruminating a bit.

Fleetwiki says 320 and 321 were delivered in June 2004 and entered service on the 2nd and 3rd of July. Deliveries are not subsequently noted, and many in-service dates are given only to the year. However 322 to 326 all entered service on 3rd July, and 327 to 332 are just quoted as July '04. 333 to 342 have 2004 only as in-service. 343 is given as entering service in March '05.

Relying on this and the quoted information, it seems that 5 more buses will need retiring within a month and a bit, and further 5 within about 2 months. Then a further 9 before the end of the year.

With 10 buses to go within a couple of months, how is TC going to cope? Are they really expecting another 5 or more deliveries to add to the buses on hand? At the present rate, this seems unlikely, but who knows. The implication is that the Renaults will need to soldier on. If further early gas bus retirements from 2005 deliveries occur due to severe failures and deliveries do not improve (a sleeper might be the rate of Yutong deliveries, now the newly ordered have started arriving), it is even possible to envisage some retired Renaults stored being reactivated (recall 927). TC seem to be on a very thin edge.

To cap it all off, an election is due. A nervous period for TC and the Minister.   

Sylvan Loves Buses

So much for the Renault farewell tour eh, we're gonna get the GAS bus farewell tour first at this rate xD

L94UBbusfan


Barry Drive

#94
I can't see any significant deliveries of new Yutongs until September, at the earliest.

Tuggeranong Depot doesn't have the infrastructure to charge more than 12 buses and the new chargers seem to be many months away.

Additionally, I don't think they're likely to commission new buses with the old ticket system if they have to swap them out again straight away.

This wouldn't have been much of a problem if the Custom Dennings and BusTechs were actually in service by now, as was planned - we would have had enough buses to fully withdraw the Renaults and 7 CNG L94s.

triumph

Which raises the question - what is the minimum number of buses actually needed for a school term weekday to sustain the timetable. Then to add to this, there are buses not available for duty due to heavy repairs and servicing, and further a standby number to cover for accidents and breakdowns. Perhaps if push comes to shove, more servicing can be done off-peak/overnight/weekends. What we don't really know is how close things are to the point when some timetabled services have to be cancelled (unless some retired Renaults can be restored to service) . Clearly with the Renaults still retained in use there is not much fat in the fleet.

Barry Drive's comments highlight the interlocking shambles looming (and in an election year). New buses, though, could be rushed into service with no ticket devices and give free rides. Charging seems to becoming another intractable issue - is it possible to charge more, by utilising daytime when buses are free off peak, and is there any possibility of using chargers elsewhere?

So far the thoughts here have been about TC's own resources. Is it even likely, that short term hires/leases could be arranged from other operators? They are probably having supply issues too, and in the same boat. So probably not.

It looks like the 'interesting times' of that well known oriental curse.



 

Snorzac

There's a lot of factors at play here as highlighted, from observation it seems a lot of Belconnen shifts which come on the road around the 9-10am mark both school term and school holidays tend to be Irisbus or artics which may indicate a shortage of standard low floor buses at Belconnen.

Tuggeranong tends to be pretty sound with bus types appearing on the same shifts/runs however I imagine with the number of buses Tuggeranong are without and the potential more will need to be removed they may soon run into issues. 

At the moment there's also many factors at play which will further limit fleet availability, as highlighted on ACT Bus social media if appears the early work for MyWay + is well underway, if you're travelling down Scollay st you can see a shipping container place in the sheds and in off peak times typically 2-3 buses will be parked there getting worked on, one would assume this is a contractor carrying out the work for NEC so there is a further limiting factor on bus availability.

I think for now they will be fine, further retirements may cause issues however, will be interesting to see what happens on the first really cold morning of the year when a lot of the buses end up at the workshops due to heaters not working as they should, this could make for a very turbulent day as far as service reliability goes with the current state of the fleet. 

L94UBbusfan

For the very short term, TC will be fine. It will be when 5-10 more CNG L94s are retired and before the Yutong's have some significant deliveries they will be having problems with fleet availability (roughly May-September) and as mentioned MyWay+ works and other maintenance problems will also affect the fleet. I also wondered if some of the 26 Scania's would go to Tuggeranong short-term to cover for L94UBs, but probably too much of a hassle just to be there for a few months.

Anyway, 933 has been updated as retired.

Barry Drive

There are two new Yutongs fitted only with the new ticketing system.

As has been announced, these will be used in regular service, and there will be 4 in total.

So that's potentially 4 more Renaults to be withdrawn shortly.

L94UBbusfan

This should mean (since the new Yutongs are based at Tuggeranong) that the final 3 Tuggeranong Renaults will be withdrawn once they enter service. There is an extremely slim chance they will be kept due to L94 withdrawals, but I very highly doubt. All depends on fleet availability.