Taking Photos of Buses - Your Rights

Bus 400 · June 21, 2009, 08:41:31 PM

Whoops - missed a few posts when i split this thread - will quote them below and then onto TP3000's post - R

Quote from: Mini Mat on June 21, 2009, 08:35:12 PM
I was in the Tuggeranong Interchange today taking some pictures while waiting for my 913. The supervisor approached me and told me that due to anti-terrorism laws I was not allowed to take pictures of buses. He then went on to tell me that if I wanted to I have to ask the supervisor above him before I take pictures.

I know for a fact that he is wrong and that it is legal. But what should I do? Should I contact ACTION informing them of their supervisors mistake or should I just leave it?

Quote from: Sir Pompously on June 21, 2009, 08:58:14 PM
ACTION has no policies (Internal and External) that relate to public photography of buses for private use. Anti Terrorism law is bullshit (There was something about this in a recent Railway Digest, I will dig up the copy I have and see what it says), and that is only because they are looking for an excuse to prevent you from doing so. A Supervisor can ask you to move on if you are blocking flow (On a Sunday, haha) or loitering, however (Like train stations) they are a public place and therefore you are able to take photos. You also are not required to ask a supervisor, you can inform them of your intentions but they cannot prevent you from taking photographs. This is different if photos are required for Commercial Purposes, which is not what your photography is about.

Personally I would email ACTION and inform them of the supervisor, and that you are aware that no State, Territory or Commonwealth law prevents photography of transportation and that there is a no private photography policy provided by ACTION to say this is not allowed. Ask that the supervisor be informed of the Anti Terrorism Act and that it should not be applied as an excuse in this situation.

TP3000, it is not for you to get someone to 'have a word with him'. That is for Zac to negotiate with ACTION and have an ACTION staff member that is sent by management to do so (So a Duty Manager, Region Manager or his Direct Answer).

Around what time was this? As I may be able to find out who the super was & wether he is a goody 2 shoes or one of the good ones. I might be able to find out ACTION's policy on photos & maybe get someone to have a word with him.

But as far as I am aware after the Interchange Supervisors you get Southern Region Manager, unless he is taking about Depot Supervisors

Ed · June 21, 2009, 09:14:27 PM

QuoteBut as far as I am aware after the Interchange Supervisors you get Southern Region Manager,

There is a level of supervisor (TO4) in between these two. They usually wear white shirts (and a tie) with the ACTION logo. You guys will probably see them occasionally at the interchanges. The supervisors you guys see everyday (the ones that don the green shirts) answer to the TO4s.

QuoteI might be able to find out ACTION's policy on photos & maybe get someone to have a word with him.

Julian, this is Zac's fight (should he take it up further), not yours.

Bus 400 · June 21, 2009, 09:27:33 PM

I don't even know who the guy is yet, he may be one of the so & so's who I won't talk to or he may be a mate. Which means I would of just asked him if I could take pictures in the interchange.

I ain't having an argument with someone, unless I am personally involved (like now).

Sir Pompously · June 21, 2009, 09:43:12 PM

The thing is though, you don't need to ask. As it is not defined as you should ask. However your original post is very much a you getting involved in a company matter (i.e Talking to staff about such matters which is for a Manager or Supervisor to deal with).

Looking through it all, the Anti Terrorism Act 2004 relates only to the arrest and imprisonment requirements and rights of the accused. It does not relate to anything other than this. The article on Austlii (There is also a few hundred results on Terrorism Insurance, wow) was also linked to the Crimes Act 1914, which covers exactly the same thing, except goes into more detail and the only parts relating to photography is photography of accused and of a crime scene. There is also some good reading on this all at http://www.artslaw.com.au/legalinformation/StreetPhotographersRights.asp, however this relates more to street photography but it does relate somewhat.

Bus 400 · June 21, 2009, 09:58:56 PM

The Super may of also thought that Zac was Interchange scum casing the joint & wanted him to leave, but didn't want the Police called at that moment.

Although I have been told there are mug shots of Bus Photographers in each Supervisor Office. I have been told that mine has been removed because of who I know.

Snorzac · June 21, 2009, 10:03:15 PM

Sure there is...

I will be E-mailing ACTION after school about it, and I might get a driver (who is at the depot all day) to follow it up if I don't get a response.

Bus 400 · June 21, 2009, 10:13:49 PM

From my experiences I'd ring up & complain, you can get a quicker response & they can hear your frustration.

Snorzac · June 21, 2009, 10:24:43 PM

Yes but they won't follow it up. If you e-mail them they are from what I have been told obliged to follow it up as with any other complaint put into writing.

Sir Pompously · June 21, 2009, 10:25:36 PM

Quote from: TP 3000 on June 21, 2009, 09:58:56 PM
The Super may of also thought that Zac was Interchange scum casing the joint & wanted him to leave, but didn't want the Police called at that moment.

Although I have been told there are mug shots of Bus Photographers in each Supervisor Office. I have been told that mine has been removed because of who I know.

Who you know? Not this High Horsed shit again! Heck, you don't even know John Citizen.....

Sorry, but there are no mug shot's of people in anyones office. Not even at Coles were we allowed to have photos of anyone (Even Shoplifters) circulated, as it is not permitted.

Hell, if they thought Zac was Intechange scum, I would hate to think of what they think when you drive in in your red Camry! However, what you say is still not a valid reason as there would be no proof of such an alligation. Do not assume what you cannot prove, and provide them as fact (Unless you state your assumptions are just that, Assumptions) is the best way to look at it. A Supervisor can do diddly squat, they can request a person leave but must have grounds to do so (The only reasonable grounds that I am aware of are causing a disturbance, loitering, or if you are blocking flow). Anything more than that is a Police matter, and therefore left for the Police to decide.

Quote from: TP 3000 on June 21, 2009, 10:13:49 PM
From my experiences I'd ring up & complain, you can get a quicker response & they can hear your frustration.

Sending an email is good, calling up the TAM's call centre is not bad however can be Painful listening to that music when on hold. An E Mail, although more informal, is a good way to communicate in these situations and a request for contact in return can also be requested. However, if using the Internet I would suggest the Online form from the TAM's website.

Bus 400 · June 21, 2009, 10:39:21 PM

I was joking about bus fan photo's. But without saying too much there are photos of certain people that are (court ordered) banned from ACTION Interchanges (3 that I know of).

But the Supers will keep an eye on everyone for quite a while & maybe even that short ride on 371 may of raised there suspicion. But since I don't know how things played out, I can't say that was for certain.

Zac, maybe while you are out at Cohen Street Bus Station tomorrow morning ask the Supervisor (in case you don't know-he'll be around Platform 1 with a TO4 possibly) there what he would say if he saw you taking pictures around the Bus Stations on a quite Sunday afternoon. But don't tell him the real reason that you are asking.

Barry Drive · June 22, 2009, 01:07:22 PM

Zac, I can give you the name of someone who you could talk to / email if you want to take this enquiry further. From a driver's perspective, there is nothing that I have been told about taking bus photos. My only rule is - NO FLASH!

Bus 400 · June 22, 2009, 01:11:41 PM

I found out a bit more on this issue this morning. Apparently it is against the law to photograph public servants doing their job or public servant vechiles without permission.

Most supervisors are like spiders, they'll leave you alone if you leave them alone. So if you start are fight or something in their territory they enforce the law. But if you are good little boys & girls you'll be fine. Others are like Lions & pounce on anything & everything.

Barry Drive · June 22, 2009, 02:59:25 PM

Quote from: TP 3000 on June 22, 2009, 01:11:41 PM
Apparently it is against the law to photograph public servants doing their job or public servant vechiles without permission.

'Apparently' is a weasel word. If it is against the law, then tell us which law and which section(s).

For example, I can tell you that it is against the law for anyone other than a bus driver to sit in a driver's seat:

Quote from: Road Transport (Public Passenger Services) Regulation 200259 Travel not allowed on certain parts of bus
(1) A passenger on a bus must not—
(a) enter the driver's compartment (if any) of the bus; or
(b) occupy the driver's seat or a part of the driver's seat.
Maximum penalty: 5 penalty units.

This has been discussed before (in ATDB) and the general consensus was that "it's illegal to photograph a public servant performing their duty due to the privacy act" was a load of bullshit. A private citizen may take such photographs if taken from a public place. But if you were to enter the grounds of a depot and take photos, that would be a different story as you could be charged with trespassing.

Busnerd · June 22, 2009, 05:12:42 PM

Oh I'm so sick of people on power trips, why must they falsely enforce the law.

They think they are high and mighty when they are not, and they do not know what they're talking about. But because they are adults and we are 'kids' to them, they think they are right.

Zac, send an email off, make it sound good and proper, make sure you quote the exact laws on photography and get a proper answer. If you get a response saying there is no laws to prohibit photographing buses then make sure you print it, laminate it and give everyone you know a copy so that when your out and about you can put them in their place.

Snorzac · June 22, 2009, 05:21:07 PM

Martin is actually getting me contact details for someone in the liaison person that he thinks would be better than e-mailing.

Bus 400 · June 22, 2009, 07:21:04 PM

Quote from: Martin on June 22, 2009, 02:59:25 PM
'Apparently' is a weasel word. If it is against the law, then tell us which law and which section(s).

I use that word as I was told by a guy who acted as supervisor, I haven't seen it written yet so I can't confirm it. He was talking about it being under the terrorism act.

Sir Pompously · June 22, 2009, 07:50:23 PM

Take a look here and see what you can find TP3000, I have bets on you finding nil to do with photography in the law. http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinosrch.cgi?method=boolean&query=Terrorism+Act&meta=%2Fau&mask_path=au%2Flegis

You will find anything to do with Terrorism law, or anti Terrorism law is all about the powers law enforcement agencies have, not what people can or cannot do in the public relm.

Ed · June 22, 2009, 08:47:58 PM

QuoteThe Super may of also thought that Zac was Interchange scum casing the joint & wanted him to leave

With a camera and tripod?

Interchange scum can't afford that sort of shit.

Snorzac · June 22, 2009, 09:00:25 PM

I could have stolen it.... but Ed is correct, Interchange scum cannot afford a 10 mp camera and 5 ft 8" Tripod

Barry Drive · June 23, 2009, 02:08:16 PM

Quote from: TP 3000 on June 22, 2009, 07:21:04 PM
I use that word as I was told by a guy who acted as supervisor, I haven't seen it written yet so I can't confirm it.

I had guessed as much. My points are (a) don't always repeat what you are told as if it's true (b) name your source (instead of saying "apparently", say "I was told by a former acting supervisor that...") and (c) don't always believe it - find out for yourself or at the very least confirm what is being said from other sources.

Who was it in the ATDB forum (4 October 2007) on this very subject said this:

Quote from: Bus 400This might be a bit late. But quite a while ago, I was told by the ACT Policre branch of the Australian Federal Police that you are allowed to take pictures of anything in public. ... I think the Police would know more about this sort of thing.

Yet now you are treating the word of 'a guy who acted as supervisor' as gospel.

Quote from: TP 3000 on June 22, 2009, 09:42:52 PM
-Also I saw a scary thing, it looks as if the new ACTION uniforms might be bright green. As I saw a driver with one of the new bright green hats.

Just because the cap is green you conclude that the full uniform will be green?

Quote from: TP 3000 on June 22, 2009, 09:42:52 PM
Apparently the mechanics have bright new orange uniforms.

As opposed to their current dull orange uniforms?

Buzz Killington · June 25, 2009, 08:23:22 PM

Quote from: Mini Mat on June 22, 2009, 05:21:07 PM
Martin is actually getting me contact details for someone in the liaison person that he thinks would be better than e-mailing.

I would suggest that when you talk to this person, get something in writing that you can laminate and carry around with you should you be approached whilst taking photos in the future.

If you do get anything in writing, let us know and we may see to putting it on the website/forum. In the meantime, these links may help: http://www.4020.net/words/photorights.php and http://www.artslaw.com.au/info-sheets/info-sheet/street-photographers-rights/#headingh31